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teleo
11-27-2011, 08:50 AM
Short article in The Valley Reporter this week on development plans for Lincoln peak. Can't find it on-line to put a link in. Talks about phase 1 of 15 units in 3 buildings, construction starting April 2012. Plan is for 80 to 90 units housing and commercial space.

P.S. Awfully sore after 2 days of spring skiing to start the season. 1 more to go today. Get it before it melts.

HowieT2
11-28-2011, 05:39 PM
Got an email with the floor plans but its too big to post. looks like 3 bedroom units. anyone know the prices?

Strat
11-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Any word on the location of the new buildings? I remember the old Clay Brook site plans showing future development at the bottom of the Village Chair, eventually trying to link Clay Brook and the new Skier Services buildings to the Village, but I can't seem to find anything now.

shadyjay
11-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Think I heard alongside the "helicopter lot", from the Farmhouse/Schoolhouse, out towards Village Road. But that was a while ago.

Seems like something should take the space between the Farmhouse/Schoolhouse and the Village parking lot. There just seems to be way too much open space there. Of course the Lodge at Lincoln Peak I believe was supposed to go in that cleared out space between the Village (chair) and Village (lot).

gostan
11-29-2011, 04:13 PM
In this Internet Age, nearly all developmental filings are available for the public to view. According to the public record, the following is the preliminary materials for Lincoln Peak Village Project Phase II.

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2011/Submittals/2011-15-SD.PUD.%20Sketch%20Plan%20Review.Summit.Ventures.N E.LLC%20PhaseII.VillageRd.250011.250012/11.21.11_2011-15-SD.PUD.%20Sketch%20Plan%20Review.Summit.Ventures.N E.LLC%20PhaseII.VillageRd.250011.250012.Applicatio n.pdf

Treeskier
11-29-2011, 05:04 PM
Nice find. Very interesting. I had talked with a couple of the perspective home owners over the weekend. They said they were excited about the prospect of a new slope side property.

Now back to my snow dancing.

ducky
11-30-2011, 07:25 PM
Well that will make the morning school bus pick up interesting. Currently, our kids get picked up and dropped off at the Chez Henri/Village bridge. Wonder if I will still be able to ski in down Out to Lunch.

Hrdstrt
12-01-2011, 09:44 AM
Well that will make the morning school bus pick up interesting. Currently, our kids get picked up and dropped off at the Chez Henri/Village bridge. Wonder if I will still be able to ski in down Out to Lunch.
According to the pdf posted up thread, it doesn't look like bus pick-up and drop off should be an issue, the chez henri bridge looks to be staying as is, with a nice turn around at the end of it. I'm guessing it would be fine for a school bus and shuttle busses. Hard to read the slope on the trails, but one would think if it's being built as ski in/out, it should have good trail access. Trails are in the plan in blue. Looks like parking under the buildings too. Overall, looks pretty good. That has always been sort of a odd looking area, should spruce it up a bit.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 02:44 PM
If you look at it closely is apears that the VR lift base is going to be relocated higher up the mountain and maybe to the left as you look up. Interesting. It sure is going to be busy down there. I guess it should tie in the village a little better.

arc1
12-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Interesting indeed. This goes straight to the chicken and egg arguement.

Chicken:' Who the hell will make a serious investment in a ski resort with such an anemic and hugely, massively, competitively disadvantaged (Stowe, Kton, Sriver, etc) snowmaking system. I mean in a lean snow year, of which there are many in these parts, the ski product really falls short.'

Egg: This place is lovely, the folks are all super friendly, the owner is on hand and genuinely interested and invloved and has good vision. Let's plunk down and double up on the ski tuning passes. Maybe they'll overhaul that dreadful Sharc place so when the snow is limited we can work out in a less auntiquated facility and not break out in hives after going in the hot tub. It's just a shame they seem to run out of food at the CRP every weekend just about when we're done skiing - isn't that when most places ramp up for Apres? But when it does snow, this place is the sxxt.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 03:11 PM
Now that is a nasty post. ;-)

arc1
12-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Meant to be totally constructive, as I'll be found lapping JesterSpout this weekend should we reopen, and nodding with understanding when Shaun tells me the wings are sold out at 4 saturday afternoon.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Interesting indeed. This goes straight to the chicken and egg arguement.

Chicken:' Who the hell will make a serious investment in a ski resort with such an anemic and hugely, massively, competitively disadvantaged (Stowe, Kton, Sriver, etc) snowmaking system. I mean in a lean snow year, of which there are many in these parts, the ski product really falls short.'

Egg: This place is lovely, the folks are all super friendly, the owner is on hand and genuinely interested and invloved and has good vision. Let's plunk down and double up on the ski tuning passes. Maybe they'll overhaul that dreadful Sharc place so when the snow is limited we can work out in a less auntiquated facility and not break out in hives after going in the hot tub. It's just a shame they seem to run out of food at the CRP every weekend just about when we're done skiing - isn't that when most places ramp up for Apres? But when it does snow, this place is the sxxt.

we are all frustrated with the stinking weather, but the snowmaking is not that bad. Have to agree about the sharc though, it's an embarrassment.

arc1
12-01-2011, 03:26 PM
Our only favorable snowmaking comparison is to Mad River. Really.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 03:40 PM
Ya, Ya and more wings. I hear you. I love those things with the jerk seasoning. see you soon.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 03:54 PM
Ya, Ya and more wings. I hear you. I love those things with the jerk seasoning. see you soon.

same here. good stuff and I have a feeling this is the year I get to see the superbowl in the crp. booyah!

gostan
12-01-2011, 04:38 PM
same here. good stuff and I have a feeling this is the year I get to see the superbowl in the crp. booyah!Not in New Jersey?

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Not in New Jersey?

Huh? no.

gostan
12-01-2011, 04:55 PM
Sorry...I got my years mixed up. Super Bowl is not in New York (I mean New Jersey) until 2014. The currently 0-11 Colts get to host this years Super Bowl in Indianapolis in 2012. &, I do wish Peyton a speedy recovery. The football season is not the same without two Mannings at QB.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 05:05 PM
Sorry...I got my years mixed up. Super Bowl is not in New York (I mean New Jersey) until 2014. The currently 0-11 Colts get to host this years Super Bowl in Indianapolis in 2012. &, I do wish Peyton a speedy recovery. The football season is not the same without two Mannings at QB.

Oh! I actually might be able to score tickets for that game and that would break my streak of superbowls at SB which is now over 15 or should I say XXV.
can't imagine peyton ever playing again and if he does, he's a fool.

gostan
12-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Oh! I actually might be able to score tickets for that game and that would break my streak of superbowls at SB which is now over 15 or should I say XXV.
can't imagine peyton ever playing again and if he does, he's a fool.Maybe he can become a QB coach for the Jets. Seriously, I completely agree with you. He should not play. But, he is a Manning, so he will definitely try to get back on the field of play.

win
12-02-2011, 03:57 PM
I was going to reply to the development questions, but it seems the thread has gone onto a different direction. Give me some free money like AIG got from the Government and we will do everything all at once. So far $!4 million in new base lodges and $10 million in new groomers, two new lifts and updgrades to snowmaking equipment have been made. Can't do everything all at once. Future development gets us the capital to do more.

Now to the development. This will be done in phases as demand materializes. Right now several people have expressed interest in 3-4 room ski on/ ski off condos. Key is to connect our "new" village to original Sugarbush Village in all season. Out to lunch will actually be improved so that it is fairly level from bottom of trail to the Gate House lift. Mountain condos will have ski access to the trails . We will build from top to bottom in stages over a few years and when the bottom buildings are going in, a new lift lift replacing Village Lift will be moved up and access to it will be better from all angles. Parking will be available for businesses in the Village but it is not for general parking (it never has been intended to be that). Mad Bus and School buses and delivery trucks will still be able to get in and out. Pricing is not yet finalized but will like be less per square foot than Clay Brook and more than other area condos because of the location and quality of the construction.

Tin Woodsman
12-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Great stuff Win. Thanks.

Terrific to see such a clear priority on connecting to SB Village. I love how the modular approach enables you to approach the development in lower-risk chunks instead of one large structure like Clay Brook. And of course the Rice Brook name is a nice continuation of the SB theme. Do you anticipate that any of these buildings (perhaps Building E) will have the height (e.g. 3 stories or more) to visually counter the size/scale of Clay Brook, or do you plan to make them all 1-2 stories only?

djd66
12-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Looks like a great long term plan Win. Not sure where you could put this, but I'd love to see some kind of outdoor skating pond at the base. For short money, it would add so much for the kids/adults to do at night and would help get more people to the area at night. Pond, lights, little shack selling waffles + Hot Choc and some where selling adult beverages.

Hawk
12-03-2011, 04:33 PM
It all sounds great win. I use out to lunch quite a bit coming down from my condo so that is perfect. I will have to put the pitch into my old friends at that other ski area. One of the complaints I heard was that the Bush didn't have new Ski in/out properties. Sounds like we are about to fix that. The one thing that I wish we had was a coffee shop with real espresso makers. The shop in the school house doesn't cut it with those pod machines they have. Maybe we could just upgrade there. I don't know what I will do when Henry retires. ;-)

gostan
12-04-2011, 07:16 AM
Now to the development. This will be done in phases as demand materializes. Right now several people have expressed interest in 3-4 room ski on/ ski off condos. Key is to connect our "new" village to original Sugarbush Village in all season. Out to lunch will actually be improved so that it is fairly level from bottom of trail to the Gate House lift. Mountain condos will have ski access to the trails . We will build from top to bottom in stages over a few years and when the bottom buildings are going in, a new lift lift replacing Village Lift will be moved up and access to it will be better from all angles. Parking will be available for businesses in the Village but it is not for general parking (it never has been intended to be that). Mad Bus and School buses and delivery trucks will still be able to get in and out. Pricing is not yet finalized but will like be less per square foot than Clay Brook and more than other area condos because of the location and quality of the construction.Win, I know that the entire base re-development plan, has been undertaken with great thought, effort, investment and risk and that you and your entire ownership, planning, design & build and financial teams have done an amazing job to date in taking your visions from paper to reality. And doing so in the most difficult economic and real estate environment of the past few years (presently still existing-but getting a bit better lately) certainly shows great resolve. This leads me to the conclusion that the same planning and resolve will be and/or is being put in place to continue to maintain, upgrade and improve the on mountain experience including lifts, grooming, snowmaking, tree skiing, etc. Notice that I used the word "maintain" first in this last sentence. I understand and I think that many of us here need to focus on the fact that aging mountain facilities/infrastructure requires great investment from the maintenance side of the overall budget in order to keep the ship floating/running. Of course, at a certain point, maintenance dollars will need to be transitioned into upgrade dollars. Maybe, it would be helpful here (not that you have to) to give some of us rabid SB fans on this forum an idea of what might be in the 10 year operational long range upgrade plans to wet our appetite for such details.

On another note, transferring the folks interested in some of these new ski on/off residential units to paper is always a conundrum. No developer wants to build spec units, but I have found over 3 decades of working in the real estate development biz that selling from an empty cupboard always slows down the process. Building a few model units always generates sales, albeit with more risk. Several years ago, we sold 68 permitted residential units to Toll Brothers, and they now have 18 pre-sales on paper; but those did not occur until the residential market improved and the 4 model units were in place and open for business.

Best of luck moving forward with your visions and plans here at SB. The completion of this balance of the base redevelopment will be welcomed by all.

teleo
12-24-2011, 08:59 AM
Just noticed, lots of more detailed plans here:

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2011/Submittals/2011-15-SD.PUD.%20Preliminary%20Plan.PRD%20Review.Summit.V entures.NE.LLC%20PhaseII.VillageRd.250011.250012/TOW%20Table%20of%20Contents%2012012011.htm

ThinkSno
12-28-2011, 12:59 PM
Just noticed, lots of more detailed plans here:

http://www.warrenvt.org/depts/drb/2011/Submittals/2011-15-SD.PUD.%20Preliminary%20Plan.PRD%20Review.Summit.V entures.NE.LLC%20PhaseII.VillageRd.250011.250012/TOW%20Table%20of%20Contents%2012012011.htm

If I'm reading these plans correctly, many of the new buildings have their own underground parking except for C1, which has a 32-space parking lot (presumably residential). Therefore, it looks like there will only be a total of 40 parking spaces adjacent to the existing Sugarbush Village. Seems a 40-space parking lot is on the small side for non-residents who would like to take advantage of the amenities in the Village, current or future. Could this plan be another Castlerock Pub prior to its expansion?

win
12-29-2011, 01:40 PM
All buildings will have underground parking for the residents, and we are working on having at least 60 spots available for others.

random_ski_guy
01-02-2012, 10:50 PM
Looks like a great long term plan Win. Not sure where you could put this, but I'd love to see some kind of outdoor skating pond at the base. For short money, it would add so much for the kids/adults to do at night and would help get more people to the area at night. Pond, lights, little shack selling waffles + Hot Choc and some where selling adult beverages.

This is really an excellent idea. I know my kids would love it and it would help get us out and about during the evening.

In light of these new plans, which are rather complete, its hard too see just where a centralize skate pond could be shoehorned in. Perhaps in that small new green in the walkway to Sugarbush Village. Pond, lights, a little shack selling waffles sounds great.

ducky
01-04-2012, 12:07 PM
Consider the parking implications of reducing access.

Another major point to leaving the top of the Village Double with access to Out to Lunch is that several hundred people use that for home and condo access. They will now drive to the parking lot if they can't get home at the end of the day or if it becomes inconvenient because they have to take GH.

The publicity material states Sugarbush's desire to integrate Rice Brook and the base area into the Old Sugarbush Village. If access is reduced to the Village homes, Row Houses, Villager, Forum, Mountainside, Castlerock, Clariere, etc condos, it may do the opposite. We know several families who own Summit and Unihab condos who use Out to Lunch and walk down East Rd to get home. As full-time residents, we see a surprising amount of traffic on this trail and every morning we welcome skiers entering at our trail spur opposite East Rd which feeds Out to Lunch.

If the powers that be are in doubt, I am happy to document this with photographs of happy guests with ski-in/ski-out access and smiles on their faces.

muddy_hollow
01-05-2012, 06:22 AM
I don't own a condo in the Village and I don't plan on buying one of Win's new places, but why is they new development and changes to the VD a slight on the village itself? SB doesn't own the village any longer, so what does SB owe the village? If SB were walling up Out to Lunch and building hedge rows between the village and the base area I could see people have an issue, but the plan keeps the existing trail, updates a slower-than-hell-erector-set-style lift and puts a significant investment back into the valley (again).

I would challenge the owners of the Village to ask what are they doing to make the place better? What are their development plans? How are they going to attract all these owners to walk north when they want a pint? The village looks rundown and a bit trashy (sorry to the owners). Broken concrete, overgrown plants, buildings in need of intensive repair / replacement. Seems to me that the village residents has a huge benefactor next door who's investment will only improve the value of the village.

djd66
01-05-2012, 07:53 AM
+ 1 muddy hollow.
It seems to me SB has made every effort to make the Village happy by adding 75 parking spacing and making sure there is connectivity to the
Village. If I were a business owner in the village I would be very happy with the plans - as they will directly benefit more than anyone.

Although I enjoy the village and it's proximity to where I live, the place is in need of some major capital improvements/maintenance,.... Looks like nothing has been done since the 60's.

ducky
01-05-2012, 08:17 AM
Hi Muddy, the resort owns all the roads in the Village, including the Old Village parking lot "Gaza Strip" area, and does, IMO, a minimum of maintenance to get by. I routinely write to get potholes fixed, signage repaired, and regarding water issues - though they do respond reasonably quickly. They charge property owners about $400 a year to maintain roads alone. It is not up to the property owners to maintain, but up to the Resort. It is actually written in our deeds that we pay dues to SB for roads, water, and sewer. The annual fees for my home to the resort are about $3,000 on top of taxes. They have deeded responsibility for infrastructure and run it as a business. For example, private wells and septic systems are prohibited by deed.

How is it that we benefit (huge benefactor next door) from the resort, when all the dollars we spend to live here go to service the Resort? Additionally, almost all homes or condos in the Village area, nearly every property served by the Access Rd or German Flats, are available for rent - the sole purpose being lodging for skiers and riders, wedding guests, golfers, etc. at the Resort. The exception is about 40 year-round families, ours included. When we bought in 2002, there was no Clay Brook, Rice Brook, or other resort-owned property developments. It is hard to say whether there has been any real influence on our property value from Clay Brook or the new base area improvements. It is good for the Resort as a whole however, and there is probably reciprocal value for us too as such.

sgottmann
01-05-2012, 12:15 PM
+ 1 muddy hollow.
It seems to me SB has made every effort to make the Village happy by adding 75 parking spacing and making sure there is connectivity to the
Village. If I were a business owner in the village I would be very happy with the plans - as they will directly benefit more than anyone.

Although I enjoy the village and it's proximity to where I live, the place is in need of some major capital improvements/maintenance,.... Looks like nothing has been done since the 60's.

Fair points about the village needing to take care if itself and the potential benefit to the village as a result of the development. There are a lot of condos up there and I am always suprised that there are not business that can make it work over there. The owners pay dues for the roads, and as I understand it, the parking so they have a legitimate interest in the changes there. As for the easy rider trail and lift, it does not seem like the optimal situation to further limit beginner terrain and worsen the ease of access between the condos and the base. The situation is less than ideal now, so if possible, don't make it worse. I also think the new condo owners will want/expect to easily travel between the village and the base so Sugarbush should have an interest in the viability of the village and accompanying condos. The both will beneift from a cohesive base area with enhanced ski in/ski-out and more convenient foot travel. In fact, many planners will tell you that people will pay more for a home (purchase price or rent) for walkability and as sense of place in "urban" like development. There are also "green" benefits and a potential alleviation of parking issues by having enhanced connectivity by ski or foot. Maybe the cost is prohibitive? Maybe the space limitations don't allow it?

muddy_hollow
01-05-2012, 01:07 PM
MH, as Ducky points out, we do pay money to the mountain for maintance. They do very little. When Win was asked a couple of years ago in the Community day meeting if they were going to fix the roads, the statement back was" We are not in the road business". I guess at that point we sould have rebelled and stop payiing our fees for the road. Right? You know I do live here and I bought here so anything that is taken away just plain sucks to me. It's a matter of perspective.


I own up the road and I pay my road, water, and sewer fees like the rest of the condo owners, the value vs. dollar spent was not the point of my original post. Personally, I think it's expensive and considering the number of condos there it's probably a net plus for the resort. I don't care for the DPW in my town either and think there's to many hangers on to the tax-tit for the amount of work. Oh well...

I think it's great to see an investment into the valley during this *really* crap economy and at the end of the day the area (not just the village) will benefit when (if) the real estate market starts to return from the investment from Summit Ventures (across the board). But in my opinion, the Village has the most to gain (because of proximity) and the best opportunity to capitalize on all the potential new foot traffic. Sure, if Summit Ventures owned the village outright, there might be better maintenance or a unified plan. Someone else owns the property and shame on them for letting it go into disrepair. I got to Chez Henri, Pizza Soul, Mtn Side, and the Pinetree but it doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that the owners are doing a disservice to the condos and the businesses that are there because it looks poor and is maintained poorly. Even smells old.

I guess I don't understand the magnitude of what you're loosing. You still have access to Out to Lunch but you might have to do some extra huffing and puffing to get to the base area. Anyways, let's hope the hot tubs at Rice Brook are filled with bikini clad ladies that way you'll give that little extra skate effort as you pass by ;)

sgottmann
01-05-2012, 01:40 PM
Muddy and Stan -- agree with both of your points (especially bikini clad young ladies). Certainly, SB should "maximize" the limited development opportuity in a way the benefits its bottom line and the Village is a debacle. I am generally pro-development and fully in support private property rights and the right to develop the land in the way in which you deem appropriate. However, my concern is the long term view and that the improper connectivity will be much harder to fix after construction. Revitalization of the Village, while in no way SV's obligation, will benefit the mountain and the current owners of it. SV does own and operate the Day Care over there so I think revitalization is also a concern for SV. The decision to keep it over there are not intergrate at the Schoolhouse was unfortunate and makes things unnecessarily difficult for people with 2, 5, and 7 year olds (multiple drop offs and shuttling around). Many times these are the people the mountain is trying to attract and cultivate as long term customers or better yet, Rice Brook owners. My points are merely suggestions to improve the plan and by no means intended to crticize SV.

By the way, does anyone know if there is walkway to connect the village to the base? I could not tell from the map but it looks to me that there is not. If there is not a walkway, I think it is short-sighted and mistake.

HowieT2
01-05-2012, 01:53 PM
Muddy and Stan -- agree with both of your points (especially bikini clad young ladies). Certainly, SB should "maximize" the limited development opportuity in a way the benefits its bottom line and the Village is a debacle. I am generally pro-development and fully in support private property rights and the right to develop the land in the way in which you deem appropriate. However, my concern is the long term view and that the improper connectivity will be much harder to fix after construction. Revitalization of the Village, while in no way SV's obligation, will benefit the mountain and the current owners of it. SV does own and operate the Day Care over there so I think revitalization is also a concern for SV. The decision to keep it over there are not intergrate at the Schoolhouse was unfortunate and makes things unnecessarily difficult for people with 2, 5, and 7 year olds (multiple drop offs and shuttling around). Many times these are the people the mountain is trying to attract and cultivate as long term customers or better yet, Rice Brook owners. My points are merely suggestions to improve the plan and by no means intended to crticize SV.

By the way, does anyone know if there is walkway to connect the village to the base? I could not tell from the map but it looks to me that there is not. If there is not a walkway, I think it is short-sighted and mistake.

i think there is a walkway on the plans, but i still dont see where the relocated lift ends.

fwiw-we made the same point about the day care in discussing the planning for the schoolhouse.

and yes, more bikini clad woman

Hawk
01-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Ya I don't know why this turned into a road and taxes discussion. I just want the new lift to go about 50 yards higher so I can avoid using Gate House. Pretty simple. and Yes on Bikini clad women.
The walkway is on several of the drawings on the link. Just open and enlarge and see. I really have no issues with the village layout. Why they are concentrating on realestate in a down market it beyond me but hey, they are the experts I guess. ;-)

HowieT2
01-05-2012, 02:16 PM
Ya I don't know why this turned into a road and taxes discussion. I just want the new lift to go about 50 yards higher so I can avoid using Gate House. Pretty simple. and Yes on Bikini clad women.
The walkway is on several of the drawings on the link. Just open and enlarge and see. I really have no issues with the village layout. Why they are concentrating on realestate in a down market it beyond me but hey, they are the experts I guess. ;-)

I think the reason they are moving on this in an uncertain market has been touched upon in the discussion above. connecting sb village to the base is vital to the resort as a whole. the day care is over there. a fine restaurant, bar/pub, pizza shop, deli and ski shop are marooned over there. if you're staying at claybrook and you love timbers, there's only so many times you're going to eat there. they wanted to do this at the same time as claybrook but couldnt. so they are taking the risk to start this spring.

ducky
01-05-2012, 02:51 PM
Just to be sure we all understand, SB is actually taking away public parking spaces in the Village lot. Yes, they are adding 75 dedicated underground spaces for Rice Brook, however they are reducing the existing number of public spaces from 75 to 59. The Village businesses are concerned, especially about late night parking availability for female employees being too far away.

HowieT2
01-05-2012, 03:11 PM
Just to be sure we all understand, SB is actually taking away public parking spaces in the Village lot. Yes, they are adding 75 dedicated underground spaces for Rice Brook, however they are reducing the existing number of public spaces from 75 to 59. The Village businesses are concerned, especially about late night parking availability for female employees being too far away.

I'm sympathetic to your concerns about the lift terminus but the parking plan, even with fewer spots, would be a huge upgrade for the SB village businesses. the existing lot is a freaking disaster area. war veterans mistake the potholes for foxholes and take shelter from imaginary mortar rounds. you can barely walk there. making the lot traversable for vehicle and pedestrian traffic will be a big boost to all the village businesses. if they have to sacrifice a few parking spots, that's hardly much to ask.

Tin Woodsman
01-05-2012, 04:01 PM
I'm sympathetic to your concerns about the lift terminus but the parking plan, even with fewer spots, would be a huge upgrade for the SB village businesses. the existing lot is a freaking disaster area. war veterans mistake the potholes for foxholes and take shelter from imaginary mortar rounds. you can barely walk there. making the lot traversable for vehicle and pedestrian traffic will be a big boost to all the village businesses. if they have to sacrifice a few parking spots, that's hardly much to ask.

Have to agree there. You lose 16 public spaces but you gain 100-200 warm pillows and a beautiful new development on your door step in place of a wasteland. Net/net, sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

The Village double story is a separate issue alltogether, IMO.

random_ski_guy
01-05-2012, 04:06 PM
I agree with Tin and Howie, its a very fair trade off regarding parking and even the general design. The absense of continued direct lift access to out to lunch and utilization of the full ez rider slope is a bit disconcerting.

sgottmann
01-05-2012, 04:46 PM
Ya I don't know why this turned into a road and taxes discussion. I just want the new lift to go about 50 yards higher so I can avoid using Gate House. Pretty simple. and Yes on Bikini clad women.
The walkway is on several of the drawings on the link. Just open and enlarge and see. I really have no issues with the village layout. Why they are concentrating on realestate in a down market it beyond me but hey, they are the experts I guess. ;-)

I see the walkway now -- on the survey map I thought it was for vehicles. That leaves easy rider and lift as my concerns. Thanks.

mattlucas
01-05-2012, 07:23 PM
I'm actually all for connecting the base areas. It will be great for everyone. Maybe Win can secure a commitment for big bucks from the owners of SB Village to make it more attractive if he needs to give some stuff up. It obviously needs more than a coat of paint to make it a less creepy place to drop the kids off. I can't wait to see the parking lot get redone. The last few times I've been through there, it seems like people ONLY go out there to let their dogs crap wherever they feel like it.

But the parking issue is real. Even if everyone gets an indoor spot, have you guys seen the way families travel for vacations lately? Even the lot outside CB is packed because people don't want to take their Expeditions in the garage. So even if Mommy parks her Liberty or Subie inside, Dad's got his SUV outside in case he calls in for a powder day and the 17 year old took a car too, just cause. I'm not making this up, during holiday weeks it's impossible to park at any condos now because of this phenomenon. It wasn't even snowy this year and it was hard. Imagine with 10 foot banks!

I have a lot more to say about the Village Double, but I guess it's time for a new thread.

/end griping like a crotchety old man (for a few minutes)

southvillager
01-06-2012, 07:34 AM
I'm actually all for connecting the base areas. It will be great for everyone. Maybe Win can secure a commitment for big bucks from the owners of SB Village to make it more attractive if he needs to give some stuff up. It obviously needs more than a coat of paint to make it a less creepy place to drop the kids off. I can't wait to see the parking lot get redone. The last few times I've been through there, it seems like people ONLY go out there to let their dogs crap wherever they feel like it.

But the parking issue is real. Even if everyone gets an indoor spot, have you guys seen the way families travel for vacations lately? Even the lot outside CB is packed because people don't want to take their Expeditions in the garage. So even if Mommy parks her Liberty or Subie inside, Dad's got his SUV outside in case he calls in for a powder day and the 17 year old took a car too, just cause. I'm not making this up, during holiday weeks it's impossible to park at any condos now because of this phenomenon. It wasn't even snowy this year and it was hard. Imagine with 10 foot banks!

I have a lot more to say about the Village Double, but I guess it's time for a new thread.

/end griping like a crotchety old man (for a few minutes)

This is a very good point. It is typical to see 3 or 4 cars parked in front of a 3br condo. Are there are multiple underground spots for each Rice Brook unit, or only one?

And I agree with the earlier post that Rice Brook will be a huge boost for the village businesses. Loads of new people a sort walk away has to be a good thing.

Hawk
01-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Loads of new people? Hey they have to sell them first. I heard that they may have enough interest to start the first phase but they will not build the rest until they are mostly committed. What is the price range of the units? Just curious.

HowieT2
01-06-2012, 09:33 AM
Loads of new people? Hey they have to sell them first. I heard that they may have enough interest to start the first phase but they will not build the rest until they are mostly committed. What is the price range of the units? Just curious.

ah yes price. minor detail. my understanding is that that has yet to be determined or divulged.

gostan
01-06-2012, 09:45 AM
ah yes price. minor detail. my understanding is that that has yet to be determined or divulged.Remember, it is not just the price point of the units. The monthly condominium fees will need to be ascertained, and I suspect that they will not be cheap; especially with only one initial phase of construction in place and no real schedule of completion of the balance of the phases/units. I know that in Massachusetts, the old former true and tried method of developer's setting condo fees low and/or subsidizing condo fees in order to sell units is no longer allowed by well established & litigated case law. The typical practice is to set a budget based upon the entire number of units thinking that a few units should be less to support on a common % upkeep basis than a whole bunch of units. But, this is theory only and is not the reality. Basically, buying a condo unit prior to full completion of a condo project & subsequent control turn over by developer to the owners association is a bit of a crap shoot when it comes to establishing what the actual long term condo fees will be. But, the early purchasers should get more value for their $$$, because the developer always expects to be able to bounce the price up when the expected demand increases prices. But, this is 2012 and is not 2002.

Hawk
01-06-2012, 10:18 AM
GUESS****** I say $350,000 average cost with Condo fees of $ 350 a month?????

gostan
01-06-2012, 10:49 AM
GUESS****** I say $350,000 average cost with Condo fees of $ 350 a month?????Hawk, with townhouses and flats, of different sizes, we need to guess at a PSF price. I find it almost impossible to believe that the developer is not giving an oral estimated PP, subject to change and final agreement on pricing Otherwise, the existing reservations are pretty meaningless. Which, of course they are, until they go hard.

Hawk
01-06-2012, 11:00 AM
OK my guess is for a 3 bedroom townhouse. I just want to see how close I get. Maybe I am way off but my guess is based on new units at another resort. I want to see how they compare. Just a fun little excercise while waiting for snow.

On a side note, we postponed our trip to Tahoe with a TBD date. Our friend out there at Alpine says that all the ski bums that dropped out of school to ski are ready to slit their wrists. ;-)

sgottmann
01-06-2012, 12:01 PM
GUESS****** I say $350,000 average cost with Condo fees of $ 350 a month?????

I have heard that the first phase units are going to be 3 or 4 bedroom units with prices in the $1,000,000.00 neighborhood. No idea if this is reliable information but it certainly seems reasonable information -- the units are slopeside and intended to be high end.

Hawk
01-06-2012, 12:11 PM
Holy Shite!!!!! I guess high end. I can't wait for the open house. Man am I middle class or what???? ;-)

gostan
01-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Probably somewhere in between the $350K and the $1M. I remember when a group I represented looked at purchasing Ascutney when it failed years ago. The purchase price was ultimately just over One Million Dollars, but you had to be able to make major investments to get it back running and competitive. &, of course, now it is closed again. You have to have great kahunas to buy/run a ski area. More power to you Win, et als.

bill-now
01-06-2012, 12:38 PM
According to the Sugarbush Resort Real Estate office:

"2-4 beds range from $625K to $1.250M"

southvillager
01-06-2012, 02:04 PM
There is a 3br Claybrook for sale right now on MLS for $1,250K...the condo fee is $2,473/mo. A wild guess says the new Rice Brook will be $1000 or more per month on the condo fees.

MntMan4Bush
01-06-2012, 02:21 PM
Pffffff. $1.25 MM? Is that all? Put me down for 2.

random_ski_guy
01-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Buildign E is very intriguing. What will be on the first floor?

random_ski_guy
01-06-2012, 11:49 PM
Wading further into the online development plan filings I see now that Building E is described as a 3 story structure with 13,500 sq ft of mixed use space on the 1st floor and 30 hotel/studio units at 700 sq ft each spread between the2nd and 3rd story.

HowieT2
01-07-2012, 07:27 AM
Interesting. Has to be some more food retail.
Wonder if they move the day care?
Wonder what that means for the sugarbush inn?

random_ski_guy
01-07-2012, 10:08 AM
Yeah, this flex space could be used to add food court space (perhaps light fare (like the sunrise cafe) and bring your own?) or maybe a place to add the daycare or both. In any event, it could be a nice space rounding out that corner and infilling the gap between the new rice brook housing and the base area.

All in all, its a pretty good design from Summit Ventures, it just needs the current length of the village chair to be maintained. :)

Tin Woodsman
01-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Yeah, this flex space could be used to add food court space (perhaps light fare (like the sunrise cafe) and bring your own?) or maybe a place to add the daycare or both. In any event, it could be a nice space rounding out that corner and infilling the gap between the new rice brook housing and the base area.

All in all, its a pretty good design from Summit Ventures, it just needs the current length of the village chair to be maintained. :)

I think the issue with the day care is not about indoor space, but rather outdoor space. I believe there's a VT state mandate regarding outdoor play area for daycares, and that couldn't be shoehorned into the Schoolhouse area, nor would you want to necessarily given how central to the base area that location is. I suspect the daycare will remain exactly where it is but, if there's a small place in the new development (maybe bldg E?) where you can walk to and boot up, that would enable you to avoid the double drop inconvenience.

Ultimately, this looks like a smart approach - build out the residential in a modular approach such that you can take each successive step as demand warrants. Much lower risk than Claybrook. If they can put a space in Bldg E that is large enough to replace VH, that would eventually enable them to bring a replacement VH lift down to the base, open that area up and maybe put a half-pipe somewhere there as a great showcase. I could see events and such with a natural place for the crowd just below. Won't happen for a while in light of the money they've put into the old girl to spruce her up recently, but I wouldn't be surprised 5-6 years down the road.

And BTW, if anyone hasn't clicked through to see the plans, look at the 2nd rendering attached above - that replacement lift for the VD double is truly tiny. That is really, really strange to effectively abandon most of a perfect teaching slope like Easy Rider.

random_ski_guy
01-08-2012, 07:30 AM
I agree with you Tin with all of your points, particularly about the valley house lodge sticking around for another 5 years. Hopefully they will change their plans for the village chair and go back the to the current lifeline and length.

sgottmann
01-17-2012, 10:11 AM
I saw renderings of revised plan of the devellpment which showed some tweakings to the parking by Sugarbush Village -- looks like more spaces in larger circular lot. looked like an improvement to me. Anyone attend the Town of Warren meeting or have any updates?

mattlucas
01-25-2012, 12:49 AM
I saw renderings of revised plan of the devellpment which showed some tweakings to the parking by Sugarbush Village -- looks like more spaces in larger circular lot. looked like an improvement to me. Anyone attend the Town of Warren meeting or have any updates?

I heard there's a meeting about the village on 2/6. It might be best to fact-check to make sure.

Tin Woodsman
04-02-2012, 01:17 AM
Here was an interesting quote from that article in the Valley Reporter on construction being slated to start this Spring. Now we know why that Bldg E looked so large on the rendering.

"The total number of condo units for Rice Brook and buildings A, B, C and D is 64, according to Wade. Building E will be a mixed-use building that will include a 30-room hostel with a small conference center, a little retail, potential for a spa as well as a dining component, she said."

Anyway, with such a short, lousy season, I'd be shocked if they actually move forward with construction this off-season.

gostan
04-02-2012, 04:59 AM
Here was an interesting quote from that article in the Valley Reporter on construction being slated to start this Spring. Now we know why that Bldg E looked so large on the rendering.

"The total number of condo units for Rice Brook and buildings A, B, C and D is 64, according to Wade. Building E will be a mixed-use building that will include a 30-room hostel with a small conference center, a little retail, potential for a spa as well as a dining component, she said."

Anyway, with such a short, lousy season, I'd be shocked if they actually move forward with construction this off-season.It really depends upon how many pre-sales they have. Pre-sales can be phased in. No speculative type units will be constructed today due to financing covenants and common sense. And, no doubt, Buildings D & E will be constructed last. The real conundrum is that huge savings can be achieved by constructing the entire site work infrastructure at one time, but I seriously doubt that step will be taken.

HowieT2
04-02-2012, 06:05 AM
It really depends upon how many pre-sales they have. Pre-sales can be phased in. No speculative type units will be constructed today due to financing covenants and common sense. And, no doubt, Buildings D & E will be constructed last. The real conundrum is that huge savings can be achieved by constructing the entire site work infrastructure at one time, but I seriously doubt that step will be taken.

Considering its 4/2 already, if it was happening this spring, we would have heard something.

gostan
04-02-2012, 06:54 AM
Considering its 4/2 already, if it was happening this spring, we would have heard something.maybe, but we were still skiing on May 1 last year. And there are about 7.5 +/- months before 2012-13 ski season kicks into gear.

win
04-02-2012, 08:26 AM
We are still in the permitting phase and do not anticipate any problems in getting more local and Act 250 approval. One permits are received there is a 30 day appeal process. We have good interest but can't contract until we have final permits. We will begin whenever we feel we have sufficient contracts in hand.

Hawk
04-02-2012, 08:32 AM
Win, since the site is off to the side is it fair to say that construction could occur during ski season if need be? Just curious?

HowieT2
04-02-2012, 08:36 AM
We are still in the permitting phase and do not anticipate any problems in getting more local and Act 250 approval. One permits are received there is a 30 day appeal process. We have good interest but can't contract until we have final permits. We will begin whenever we feel we have sufficient contracts in hand.

Thanks Win. appreciate the updates.

HowieT2
04-02-2012, 08:38 AM
Win, since the site is off to the side is it fair to say that construction could occur during ski season if need be? Just curious?

also, as opposed to the previous two projects (Gatehouse and schoolhouse/farmhouse), this is not essential to resort operations. so maybe they will work through winter.

Hawk
04-02-2012, 08:52 AM
That was my thought. The only thing they need to complete would be the relocation of the chair lift to accomodate the beginners and lessons.

win
04-02-2012, 02:39 PM
Yes, we can work on this in the winter without affecting ski or village operations. We would want to be framed in by the time the snow falls though.

Tin Woodsman
04-02-2012, 03:32 PM
As an aside, the notion that you might add a 30 room hostel to that Bldg E is tremendous. Since Stowe's went by the wayside a few years back, there's really been a gap in Northern Vt for that ype of accommodation. As you clearly recognized with your 420s pass, today's 20-something brown baggers are tomorrows 30 and 40-something regulars, so providing that demographic with a cheap place to stay at the base would be a great asset in targeting that group. It would also bring a lot of life to the base area and perhaps enable it to achieve critical mass from a night life perspective.

HowieT2
04-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Yes, we can work on this in the winter without affecting ski or village operations. We would want to be framed in by the time the snow falls though.

lets hope that snow falls promptly, frequently and copiously next season!

do the hotel rooms and conference space in the new building have anything to do with the future of the sugarbush inn???

HowieT2
04-02-2012, 04:01 PM
As an aside, the notion that you might add a 30 room hostel to that Bldg E is tremendous. Since Stowe's went by the wayside a few years back, there's really been a gap in Northern Vt for that ype of accommodation. As you clearly recognized with your 420s pass, today's 20-something brown baggers are tomorrows 30 and 40-something regulars, so providing that demographic with a cheap place to stay at the base would be a great asset in targeting that group. It would also bring a lot of life to the base area and perhaps enable it to achieve critical mass from a night life perspective.

I was under the impression they were more "hotel" than "hostel". but either way, great addition to the base "village".

gostan
04-03-2012, 06:49 AM
I was under the impression they were more "hotel" than "hostel". but either way, great addition to the base "village".Howie, I certainly suspect and hope that 30 rooms equates to lower reasonably priced hotel type housing and not a hostel. There are already hostel type bed accommodations with Giles & Sarah at Hostel Tevere down near the Powderhound at 100/mountain road intersection. And I hope that Win gets sufficient hard deposits after completion of the local and state permitting process so that this project can begin. Construction action breeds interest

Hawk
04-03-2012, 11:49 AM
Where did this Hostel idea come from? I didn't see anything about that. Did I miss something?

HowieT2
04-03-2012, 12:14 PM
Howie, I certainly suspect and hope that 30 rooms equates to lower reasonably priced hotel type housing and not a hostel. There are already hostel type bed accommodations with Giles & Sarah at Hostel Tevere down near the Powderhound at 100/mountain road intersection. And I hope that Win gets sufficient hard deposits after completion of the local and state permitting process so that this project can begin. Construction action breeds interest

how many rooms are there in the sugarbush inn? I wonder if this is purely supplemental or if they plan on renovating or selling the sugarbush inn and this provides an alternative.
either way, having 30 rooms within walking distance of the base and sugarbush village will liven things up a bit and maybe provide "critical mass" as Tin said.

win
04-03-2012, 02:52 PM
The Inn has 40+ rooms and is reasonably priced and fits a nice market niche in the winter.

Tin Woodsman
04-04-2012, 12:14 AM
Where did this Hostel idea come from? I didn't see anything about that. Did I miss something?

The Valley Reported article linked to upthread said it was a hostel.

gostan
04-04-2012, 04:56 AM
The Valley Reported article linked to upthread said it was a hostel.How many beds in a room? 30 rooms could equate into a large number of beds if it is a true hostel. Nothing wrong with this type of use, but when is a hostel not really a hostel or ski dorm? Or, when are 30 rooms labelled preliminarily as a hostel really a hostel?

Wish we were still open top to bottom, instead of deliberating such important issues as hostel or hotel. Anybody want to start a lottery on next season's first snow storm.

Tin Woodsman
04-04-2012, 01:07 PM
How many beds in a room? 30 rooms could equate into a large number of beds if it is a true hostel. Nothing wrong with this type of use, but when is a hostel not really a hostel or ski dorm? Or, when are 30 rooms labelled preliminarily as a hostel really a hostel?

Wish we were still open top to bottom, instead of deliberating such important issues as hostel or hotel. Anybody want to start a lottery on next season's first snow storm.

While there are important differences between a hostel and a hotel (aside from just the "S"), my guess/hope is that, as a practical matter for this case, it's a distinction w/o a difference. Might have just been a typo in the VR or, I'm hoping, is a reflection of the intent to build some sort of budget accommodation for younger folks. Boomers are now into retirement, and you've got to find a way to attract their kids, so they get hooked and bring their own kids a few years later. Plus, that whole "critical mass" thing of nightlife and activity in the LP base area is something that's been missing for some time. With K-Mart continuing its efforts to drive away their younger demographic, and Stowe driving relentlessly upmarket, there exists a tremendous opportunity for SB to fill the void here.

HowieT2
04-04-2012, 01:13 PM
While there are important differences between a hostel and a hotel (aside from just the "S"), my guess/hope is that, as a practical matter for this case, it's a distinction w/o a difference. Might have just been a typo in the VR or, I'm hoping, is a reflection of the intent to build some sort of budget accommodation for younger folks. Boomers are now into retirement, and you've got to find a way to attract their kids, so they get hooked and bring their own kids a few years later. Plus, that whole "critical mass" thing of nightlife and activity in the LP base area is something that's been missing for some time. With K-Mart continuing its efforts to drive away their younger demographic, and Stowe driving relentlessly upmarket, there exists a tremendous opportunity for SB to fill the void here.

I might very well be wrong, but I dont get the impression the rooms are intended to be in the "budget" category.

win
04-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Not in this location!

HowieT2
04-04-2012, 04:20 PM
I understand that but its not going to be super expensive, right?

gostan
04-04-2012, 05:04 PM
Folks, we are probably over analyzing hotel or hostel uses at Building E in the proposed future to be constructed still in the process of being permitted Rice Brook project. The entire project is being permitted for the currently expected and designed units/uses. Whatever is permitted is really size, design and total end number users and square footage based and will change depending upon what sells and how the whole thing shakes out over the next few years. I suspect that use of the word hostel was intentional and not unintentional. Looks good and sounds good, doesn't it. I am sure that the intent now is to have a section of 30 rooms of some type dedicated to nightly rentals. It would not be to difficult down the road to redesign and apply for a minor modification of permits to change/redesign these proposed 30 nightly rooms to some type of condos, etc., or other uses especially if the demographics change and the demand for something else changes. I am involved in development projects where over 55 restricted residential units are changed to open market non-age restricted units; where office uses are being changed to residential rentals and where commercial rental units are converted to condominium uses. And let us not talk about projects or portions of projects that were approved but have not or may not ever be constructed. Running a ski mountain is daunting enough and is not for the hoi polloi or meek of heart and dollars and neither is real estate development at the ski mountain. Although, if some of these new residential units being developed came with some non-transferable life time ski passes for the original purchasers, the project might be pre-sold and built out a heck of a lot faster. Then we could move on to improve snow making and lift improvements in my lifetime.

Tin Woodsman
04-04-2012, 09:44 PM
Folks, we are probably over analyzing......

Well, that IS what we do here, after all, especialy when there's no snow left to distract us.

Going to be a long summer.

Hawk
04-05-2012, 06:29 AM
A developer friend of mine has always told me this. More often than not Skiing and realestate developlement are a bad combination. There are many cases were a group of investers have bought an area with the master plan that they will make it all work with realestate. Sugarloaf in th 70's is a good example and we all know how it turned out for Mr. Otten when he turned away from his bread and butter. I think that SV has a good handle on how they are approching it and managing the risk. It has always been there plan to develope the base into something special that looks and feels VT while delivering a product that sells. I just hope that the wheels don't fall off because of bad ecconomic times or bad winters or a combination of the two. As always, I worry about the infrastructure and the lack of focus on upgrading the existing. We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. I would bet most of you on here might disagree but we are not the majority of the people who visit. It is the people who buy the daily or weekly tickets that really count. That is what Les originally understood and catered to. That is how he grew so fast. Once the attention turned to realestate and growth it all went down hill.

JayBird
04-05-2012, 08:43 AM
MRV enjoys an image, reputation and allure that was established long before SR and Les Otten were on the map. Yes, conflicts can and do develop between the interests of resort Real Estate and mountain infrastructure if the ownership Property Co is apart from Mountain Operations. The developing issues in Park City between PWDR and Tallisker illustrate that pretty clearly. That's a scenario with HUGE implications for the entire state of Utah. Development at Sugarbush does appear to be well planned and under good leadership control and oversight. The local community recognizes the economic impact of the resort, and supports the management by and large on development decisions that are consistent with an overall vision for this Valley. Yes, lift operations and snowmaking infrastructure are of concern to many. Those limitations are well-known to folks far and wide. Despite those challenges, people come and smiles fill their faces. Please, let's not lose sight of the fact that Irene and a serious winter weather anomaly were the main players in a shortened season. The Vibe here is the thing that sustains us.

djd66
04-05-2012, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE=Hawk;115724We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. [/QUOTE]

Yep, I would disagree with your statement. The average skier (say a family who skis a couple times per year) would notice the new base lodge, new hotel + new school house + new farm house,.. and appreciate it. In the future, these same families would very much notice one contiguous village atmosphere - with lots of bars, restaurants + shopping all within walking distance. That's what families like when they go on vacation. As far as a "bunch of aging lifts" I can only think of one that may need to be replaced (VHD) + unless you put in a HSQ or HStriple - replacing it will not get you much. My feeling is that any development will only help the long term financial strength of the mountain.

HowieT2
04-05-2012, 09:32 AM
A developer friend of mine has always told me this. More often than not Skiing and realestate developlement are a bad combination. There are many cases were a group of investers have bought an area with the master plan that they will make it all work with realestate. Sugarloaf in th 70's is a good example and we all know how it turned out for Mr. Otten when he turned away from his bread and butter. I think that SV has a good handle on how they are approching it and managing the risk. It has always been there plan to develope the base into something special that looks and feels VT while delivering a product that sells. I just hope that the wheels don't fall off because of bad ecconomic times or bad winters or a combination of the two. As always, I worry about the infrastructure and the lack of focus on upgrading the existing. We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. I would bet most of you on here might disagree but we are not the majority of the people who visit. It is the people who buy the daily or weekly tickets that really count. That is what Les originally understood and catered to. That is how he grew so fast. Once the attention turned to realestate and growth it all went down hill.

you keep harping on the snowmaking but other than getting the party started early in the season, did you really have any complaints? the mtn was the first and only mtn 100% open for most of the season.
it's not like they havent been investing in upgrading the snowmaking system consistently year in and year out. IMHO, they have an early season, mild weather snowmaking capacity issue which if they choose to address can be accomplished with a phalanx of fan guns for the lower elevations.

As for lifts, they are all in good shape except for the VH double which is overdue for replacement and realignment. I think they are somewhat of a pickle with that, since they know the replacement should go down to the base but they have the building in the way and they need that building because the GH cafeteria and CRP arent big enough.
heck, even the nrx seems to have gotten a new lease on life. from my perspective, mechanical lift issues have improved dramatically over the past two seasons.

the only other infrastructure issue I can think of is the cafeteria and bar capacity which of course, brings us back to the VH lift issue. dont see how this can be addressed at the base but perhaps a new mid mtn lodge, either at the top of the super bravo or the gatehouse.

HowieT2
04-05-2012, 09:43 AM
Yep, I would disagree with your statement. The average skier (say a family who skis a couple times per year) would notice the new base lodge, new hotel + new school house + new farm house,.. and appreciate it. In the future, these same families would very much notice one contiguous village atmosphere - with lots of bars, restaurants + shopping all within walking distance. That's what families like when they go on vacation. As far as a "bunch of aging lifts" I can only think of one that may need to be replaced (VHD) + unless you put in a HSQ or HStriple - replacing it will not get you much. My feeling is that any development will only help the long term financial strength of the mountain.

agree except that I dont think the VHD needs to be replaced with a High speed anything. as per prior discussions, it will be a fixed grip triple which will be significantly faster than the current lift and have a lot more uphill capacity. and I think it would add significantly to the mtn. this past presidents weekend, the superbravo went down in the morning just as the vacation skiers were getting to the mtn. what resulted was a nightmare traffic jam on gatehouse and then north lynx. having another alternative lift from the base is essential in these situations and would relieve traffic at the bravo at normally heavy times. not to mention eliminating the hazardous state of the VHD terminus, which in and of itself, is reason enough to replace the lift.

Jacksun
04-05-2012, 12:26 PM
Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

Hawk
04-05-2012, 12:48 PM
Nope I disagree with both of you. Harping? No just pointing out an obvious need. I think that your perception of good snowmaking skewed. I skied a ridiculous amount of rock hard icy mogul days this year, more this year than ever. I have also skied were they make good snow and know what it is all about. It certainly was not here. The 20 or so guests that came up to visit me had the same opinion. If you only really ski here then how can you have an opinion on the comparison? We were not 100% open because of the snowmaking by any extent so what does that have to do with this comparison?
Also lifts age and they need constant maintenance. Our lifts breakdown alot and usually on peak holidays. This happen this year and guess when…. Yup, when my guests came. I know this happens everywhere but I think it is of concern if you put it off in lieu of other things. Look I am just not the peace-love-Joy rosy colored glasses type that just thinks it is all fine. I call it like I see it and in this case, my views are based on what I saw, heard and experienced here and at other places. Win and crew have done and will do a nice job for this ski area. People work hard on it and I certainly appreciate all the efforts. I just would hate for them to overlook the other things that also count a lot. Even if they or you don't see it that way. As you were!

Hawk
04-05-2012, 12:48 PM
Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

I like this idea. ;-)

southvillager
04-05-2012, 03:53 PM
Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

If I remember correctly, for one or two years they ran a magic carpet up that slope so you could get to the Valley House a bit more easily. And way back there used to be a triple up the left side of Spring Fling, which was cool for early season laps on man made snow. And they would pile it up on Spring Fling for spring skiing. It was a pretty good set up. I think they moved the triple to North Lynx to replace an old Poma.

HowieT2
04-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Nope I disagree with both of you. Harping? No just pointing out an obvious need. I think that your perception of good snowmaking skewed. I skied a ridiculous amount of rock hard icy mogul days this year, more this year than ever. I have also skied were they make good snow and know what it is all about. It certainly was not here. The 20 or so guests that came up to visit me had the same opinion. If you only really ski here then how can you have an opinion on the comparison? We were not 100% open because of the snowmaking by any extent so what does that have to do with this comparison?
Also lifts age and they need constant maintenance. Our lifts breakdown alot and usually on peak holidays. This happen this year and guess when…. Yup, when my guests came. I know this happens everywhere but I think it is of concern if you put it off in lieu of other things. Look I am just not the peace-love-Joy rosy colored glasses type that just thinks it is all fine. I call it like I see it and in this case, my views are based on what I saw, heard and experienced here and at other places. Win and crew have done and will do a nice job for this ski area. People work hard on it and I certainly appreciate all the efforts. I just would hate for them to overlook the other things that also count a lot. Even if they or you don't see it that way. As you were!

Im not looking to argue with you about the quality of the man made snow. If you say its not good, ill take your word for it, because i dont claim to be an expert. i didnt ski icy moguls as i was avoiding them. But where i skied was good not necessarily due to the snowmaking but because we had fresh powder every weekend from mid january through early march.
But you are wrong about the lifts. Other than when the bravo went down presidents day weekend, i dont recall any lift issues. Im sure, Win has the stats to back this up.

More importantly, im thinking of going up next weekend for mtn biking. Interested?

Happy holiday everyone.

HowieT2
04-05-2012, 08:34 PM
If I remember correctly, for one or two years they ran a magic carpet up that slope so you could get to the Valley House a bit more easily. And way back there used to be a triple up the left side of Spring Fling, which was cool for early season laps on man made snow. And they would pile it up on Spring Fling for spring skiing. It was a pretty good set up. I think they moved the triple to North Lynx to replace an old Poma.

I remember the magic carpet there.
The spring fling triple was taken down around 2000 i think, but the north lynx used to be the sugar bravo.

Having the lift go through a building would definitely be cool.

Hrdstrt
04-05-2012, 08:55 PM
I believe the old spring fling lift went south to a non ski oriented attraction.

southvillager
04-06-2012, 06:43 AM
I believe the old spring fling lift went south to a non ski oriented attraction.


You are right...the Spring Fling chair lives on:

http://www.chairlift.org/knoebel.html
http://www.chairlift.org/pics/knoebel/kno2.jpg

Hawk
04-06-2012, 07:41 AM
I wish I could but have commitments that I have put off all season. I hear from my MTB friends up there that things are in very good shape for this time of year. They have already started maintenance this spring and have a full slate for this summer.

No I am not looking to argue either. It's all just constructive criticism. Besides I don't expect that anybody really listens to people on a message board anyway. ;-)

win
04-06-2012, 03:30 PM
Arc! - Great thing about America is you can go somewhere else!

HowieT2
04-16-2012, 11:02 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/opinion/reform-the-eb-5-program.html?_r=1