PDA

View Full Version : 2011-2012 Annual Snowmaking Discussion Thread



gostan
11-04-2011, 05:53 AM
I am not yet really into guessing on what day the mountain will open or how many inches of snow we will have this season. A ski season for me starts slowly and builds to a crescendo. So, for now, I want to know when the snow guns will be turned on? The rest will flow from there. Unfortunately, the weather does not look like it is going to make this event an easy or early one for mountain ops.

http://www.accuweather.com/us/vt/warren/05674/forecast-month.asp

Hawk
11-04-2011, 06:17 AM
With that long range and the antisipated opening date I would think they would need at least a week of blowing to open on the 19th so I say the 12th.

Brew Ski
11-04-2011, 07:29 AM
Friday night (11th) starting on Ripcord, Jester and Deathspout!

win
11-04-2011, 08:35 AM
Brew Ski is close. Firiday during the day. Today that is. Temps, however, are good only until Sunday then it looks like a week of warm weather.

NorthLynx
11-04-2011, 12:01 PM
Well at least the good news is that the accuweather 15 day forecast has turned cold again around the 17th and 18th. cold as in the possibility of temps below 20 degrees .
Last night I took a look at the forecast and it was quite the opposite, but now it seems to be developing in a positive way again.

Today in the valley there were some odd flurries with temps while the temperatures were in the low 40's Light mist like rain one minute, and snow the next. There was evidence of a bit of a dusting up on parts of the mountain.

NorthLynx
11-04-2011, 04:31 PM
They have been blowing since the afternoon. You can just barley see the snowmaking taking place on upper jester due to the clouds.. What is more interesting oddly enough is that it
looks like the new guns we have heard all about have arrived. I apologize for the low quality picture (camera phone in low light)
44

shadyjay
11-05-2011, 08:13 PM
they definitely blew snow last night and they are blowing tonight as well... at least on jester and allyn's traverse though did hear organgrinder mentioned but they may just be checking hydrants or setting it up. it
would be really nice to have two routes from the summit open on day 1, if we're not top2bot.

some better shots of the new guns here:
http://www.sugarbush.com/about-vermont-resort/photo-gallery

Treeskier
11-05-2011, 08:18 PM
Yah!

Skiing soon

NorthLynx
11-05-2011, 09:02 PM
they definitely blew snow last night and they are blowing tonight as well... at least on jester and allyn's traverse though did hear organgrinder mentioned but they may just be checking hydrants or setting it up. it
would be really nice to have two routes from the summit open on day 1, if we're not top2bot.

some better shots of the new guns here:
http://www.sugarbush.com/about-vermont-resort/photo-gallery

Yeah they definitely look different, not like anything I have seen or been able to find in the HKT or Ratnik catalogs. I saw them taking a couple up this
afternoon in a truck, they weren't blowing yet but it did sound like they had equipment running in the snowmaking plant.
I am a bit surprised I didn't see any of these down at Kmart.

shadyjay
11-05-2011, 11:38 PM
Correction:
They only blew Friday night, until 1:30 or so Saturday afternoon. Saturday night they did not blow (inversion taking place) but are testing the air/water lines for leaks and such, so expect noise from the compressors and pumps next week even with no temps. Soon enough!! It's all in the hands of Mother Nature now - hopefully she will be good to us!

NorthLynx
11-06-2011, 10:23 AM
Judging by the current forecast I would not be surprised if the opening date gets pushed closer to the end of the month.
But then again forecasts in Vermont are really only reliable to within 3 days, if that. Sometimes they are never quite right even
within the same day so that says something about the legitimacy of a 10-15 day forecast so its still too early to say.

shadyjay
11-06-2011, 02:23 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing. Forecasts can change at the drop of a hat. Let's hope the 10-day forecast turns colder.

As a reference, here's opening days I've compiled in the past 5 years or so, give or take:
2010 - Thanksgiving Day
2009 - First Sunday in December
2008 - weekend of 11/23
2007 - weekend of 11/17 - first year of LP opening first?
2006 - unsure though I have pics of first weekend of Dec with quite the crowd at Summit so that could've been opening. Also that season (06/07) I have pics of Ripcord almost bare in mid January.


You just never know...........

NorthLynx
11-06-2011, 03:42 PM
better to get the warm weather now and get it over with.

Seems to be a 50/50 sort of thing this time of year. The sun is still strong so cold weather is really dependent on the presence of cold air. Inversions are also all too common.
My guess is if there were not a commercial demand for skiing over the thanksgiving holiday resorts would be much more conservative about opening up prior to the first week or two in
december.

HowieT2
11-06-2011, 03:55 PM
Judging by the current forecast I would not be surprised if the opening date gets pushed closer to the end of the month.
But then again forecasts in Vermont are really only reliable to within 3 days, if that. Sometimes they are never quite right even
within the same day so that says something about the legitimacy of a 10-15 day forecast so its still too early to say.

That may be so, but we look to be in a warm regime in the medium term so until the pattern changes, its going to be dicey. It'll happen eventually. Rather wait and get a good solid cold stretch, than have and have it go back and forth. Hate the thaw.

HowieT2
11-06-2011, 04:01 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing. Forecasts can change at the drop of a hat. Let's hope the 10-day forecast turns colder.

As a reference, here's opening days I've compiled in the past 5 years or so, give or take:
2010 - Thanksgiving Day
2009 - First Sunday in December
2008 - weekend of 11/23
2007 - weekend of 11/17 - first year of LP opening first?
2006 - unsure though I have pics of first weekend of Dec with quite the crowd at Summit so that could've been opening. Also that season (06/07) I have pics of Ripcord almost bare in mid January.


You just never know...........

Look who's back. it's not really winter until shady is shoveling a path through feet of snow for the chairs of the gate to heaven.

Iirc '06-'07 was brutal warm early into January.

NorthLynx
11-06-2011, 05:22 PM
just stepped out side and at least its cold out right now

gostan
11-07-2011, 06:20 AM
It is looking like I may need to ask Nick if it is possible to mod the dates on the poll. The Long range forecast looks tobe about10 degrees higher than normal over the next week, with nighttime below freezing temps starting to settle in sometime around or after November 19. Hopefully, we can make up any days lost on the front end of the upcoming season in May. (just like last year).

NorthLynx
11-07-2011, 07:47 AM
I think I will avoid looking at any forecasts for the next week or two.

My guess would be that if the pattern changes around the 20th and we get round the clock freezing temps we could be skiing by december. seeing how it is only the 7th it is too early to tell so there is still plenty of time for things to improve. The resort hasn't completely ruled out the 19th yet either.

My personal expectation would be sometime in the first week of December, although I think there is still is hope for the end of November.

Anybody want to flip a quarter?

Hawk
11-07-2011, 08:16 AM
It's just dollars and cents to me. Killington and Sunday River will be open so there won't be the Jones factor. It is unfortunate that I will have to spend extra money but it is money well spent in my opintion. This will be a good test of these new guns. It will be interesting to see how much snow they actually put out once the temperatures fall.

NL mentions the cold weather window starting the 20th or so. After reading all the discussions I would venture to say it may be even later than that. Yup the 19th looks like it will come and go.

gostan
11-07-2011, 09:01 AM
The only good thing about talking about the weather and snowmaking is that this forums heating (I hate to use that word in a thread about snowmaking guns) up as we all tend to get a bit more antsy about cold winter nights leading to some slick groomers that ends up with lots of tree skiing.

But, of course, if thing s do not start looking up.....there is always the possibility of booking a flight out west at months' end.

shadyjay
11-07-2011, 01:33 PM
Look who's back. it's not really winter until shady is shoveling a path through feet of snow for the chairs of the gate to heaven.


Oh I've been here all along... just not much to post during the summer and double-duty at the golf course kept me busy that I didn't have much time for hiking.

Now just staring out the window and hoping for a call to return to duty soon. The suspense is killing me.


Guess another inversion last night - it was in the 30s this morning up at my place above the base area, but down in the Valley, everything was frosty and in the 20s.


WOW - MY 666th post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NorthLynx
11-07-2011, 03:40 PM
Or 999 if you look at it upside down

win
11-08-2011, 11:45 AM
looks like we will have another window late Thursday or Friday am but probably turning warmer again after Saturday. The new guns tested out well last week. And, Killington does have some too.

shadyjay
11-08-2011, 12:27 PM
...but probably turning warmer again after Saturday.

Well then, Win, I guess you just have to get out of town again. We all know what happens with the weather when you do......

NorthLynx
11-08-2011, 02:05 PM
The accuweather 15 day forecast is starting to look promising again around the 18th.

Keep enjoying this late August weather!

NorthLynx
11-11-2011, 02:39 PM
They were blowing up on jester this afternoon. Temps around the base were about 39 so I guess the temperatures were not inverted.

The forecast does also seem to indicate a pattern shift in the near future and at least the warmer temps over the next
sevrale days won't be as bad as this past week.

atkinson
11-11-2011, 03:07 PM
It has been flurrying on and off for most of the afternoon too. I bet there are a few inches up top by now. Tomorrow might be nice turns at MRG for those with lots of energy and a high tolerance for turns on thin cover.

Snow!

John

win
11-11-2011, 04:30 PM
The snow guns have been back on since the morning and hopefully can stay on through most of tomorrow. Another warm front coming in but starting midweek next week the forecast is looking much better.

teleo
11-11-2011, 08:53 PM
Think you'll make the 19th so I can ski on my birthday? It's rare when it falls on a weekend and the weather cooperates so I can ski on my birthday.
Will you open if it requires downloading?

win
11-13-2011, 06:32 PM
The 19th is looking less likely but if we can we will and yes we will download. Snowmaking temperatures are not forecasted to return until late Wednesday or Thursday. After that it is looking much better and the forecast as of today is looking like colder temps early next week, so that could set us up for Thanksgiving top to bottom.

gostan
11-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Wish there was a webcam up at Allyn's or elsewhere on the upper mountain so we could all see snowmaking progress on Jester & Downspout. This would also be a great addition for snow reports and PR all winter long. I know that this may have been talked about prior to the existing webcam going into place last season, but there are many times when there is snow or heavy snow up at elevation and not at the base, that this should be a real consideration.

Looking forward to a T-Day opening.

ducky
11-19-2011, 09:09 AM
I can see the guns blowing from my kitchen window! We live at 1740' on the Out to Lunch trail. Seem to be guns blowing right down Lower Jester too. Maybe a hike and some pics are in order.

gostan
11-19-2011, 11:08 AM
I can see the guns blowing from my kitchen window! We live at 1740' on the Out to Lunch trail. Seem to be guns blowing right down Lower Jester too. Maybe a hike and some pics are in order.Please do. I am working today hoping to get out of MA early enough on Wednesday to avoid most of the traffic & hit opening day on Turkey Day. Let's see the snow guns do their thing.

HowieT2
11-19-2011, 12:06 PM
I can see the guns blowing from my kitchen window! We live at 1740' on the Out to Lunch trail. Seem to be guns blowing right down Lower Jester too. Maybe a hike and some pics are in order.

Please do. That's what we need here. A little stoke can go a long way.

ducky
11-19-2011, 03:39 PM
Here are some photos from this afternoon's hike with Nina. First thing she did was the doggy slide. Both of us so happy to see snow.

I talked with some snowmakers, Cam and crew. They said it was waist deep at the top and they look ready to go, big smiles included. Guns set up all the way down Downspout. Correction: was Upper Jester to Downspout, not Lower Jester.

See you soon.

ducky
11-19-2011, 03:49 PM
NOAA may say it's 53 in Warren, but it is freezing at elevation. This stream on Lower Castlerock about 2:30 today.

itsallaboutpow
11-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Wish there was a webcam up at Allyn's or elsewhere on the upper mountain so we could all see snowmaking progress on Jester & Downspout. This would also be a great addition for snow reports and PR all winter long. I know that this may have been talked about prior to the existing webcam going into place last season, but there are many times when there is snow or heavy snow up at elevation and not at the base, that this should be a real consideration.

Looking forward to a T-Day opening.

LOVE the idea of an Ally's Lodge webcam !!

Nick
11-19-2011, 10:29 PM
Hopefully sooner rather than later

gostan
11-20-2011, 06:33 AM
Ducky, thx for the pics.

NorthLynx
11-20-2011, 08:37 AM
we may be in for a little bit of a surprise earlier in the week. I heard something about a particular day but this came from a third party that I do not know well, and I don't know who told him. I would love to get out before the holiday crowds have their way. If not I will definitely go out next week after the holiday.

Hawk
11-20-2011, 06:48 PM
Nice work Ducky. Glad to see someone taking the initiative. NL....thanksgiving holiday crowds? I think you have your holidays confused. There is never that many people up early and the ones that do show up ski a few runs and split.

See you up there soon dudes!!!!

Brew Ski
11-20-2011, 08:06 PM
Hawk is right, Thanksgiving isn't usually too crowded on the trails. the pub is a different story. Can't wait to make turns. I can hear the lament of my skis, begging to beat on the mountain. I got overly stoked at the Boston ski expo. Need a fix. Real bad.

NorthLynx
11-20-2011, 09:14 PM
I am used to going out midweek. I used to ski over thanksgiving back before I moved here, but now I am spoiled. I will agree the crowds are rather decent in comparison to the mayhem you would find elsewhere.

The only thing is Dino is not open on wednesdays, but I eat there almost every day anyway...

gostan
11-21-2011, 06:19 AM
NWS is calling for mixed precipitation event Late Tuesday evening with a turn to rain on Wednesday and then back to snow in MRV. Up @ Stowe, NWS is showing all snow. I am hoping that elevation @ upper Mountain will be mostly white.

Hawk is right on. T-Day is definitely a quiet one as most skiers and riders are sharpening their knives- not their skis. And, of course, with limited terrain, most take a few runs and hit the Pub or Timbers or the car home. Saturday will be the busiest day with too many skiers on far too little terrain. Better Be Good & Better Be Careful.

Hawk
11-21-2011, 07:50 AM
I will go out on a limb and say that there will be no crowds at all with skiing right on to the lift. You should see what it was like at Killington and Sunday River over the last couple of weeks if you want to see crowds.

ducky
11-21-2011, 09:05 AM
Currently 28 at my house-on-the-hill and the guns are blazing up high.

boze
11-21-2011, 12:23 PM
Getting up there Tues evening w/ the extended family in tow. Hoping the event stays all snow, will do snow dance and sacrifice old pair of skis to Ullr.

pcampbell
11-21-2011, 02:07 PM
nice ducky
i didn't see you up there, but i made it up there also on Saturday.


http://p.twimg.com/Aeo59pjCAAAvFzp.jpg:large

win
11-21-2011, 04:19 PM
I am an optimist by nature, but looking at the forescast I would say it is 50/50 at best that we will be able to open Thanksgiving day. The issue is whether we will have enough cold hours between Allyn's Lodge and the bottom of Heaven's Gate to get the snow we will need to open safely. The temperatures today at the Summit allowed for some good snowmaking from the Summit of LP to Allyn's Lodge but not lower. It is getting colder as the sun set's and hopefully it will last well into tomorrow. Our forecast, however, it is to warm up and we are looking at a mix coming in later tomorrow into Wednesday. Hopefully, we will be surprised with cold temperatures and snow.

NorthLynx
11-21-2011, 06:12 PM
The temperatures definitely came down quickly this afternoon from a high in the mid 30's. When I first drove up into the
parking lot the temperatures were about 29 degrees and they had just turned on one of the new snow logic guns in-front of
the Valley House Lodge. When I left to go home at about 6:00 PM the temps were just down to about 26. I took these
pictures with only minutes to spare before it got dark.

666768

Hawk
11-22-2011, 08:38 AM
Man if Loon, Stowe, Sunday River and Killington are all open top to bottom and we can not even open just the top 1/2 to start the season then that is going to be very disapointing.
I will ski Fiday even if I have to travel.

I just hope this is Win being coy and not wanting to let the cat out of the bad to early. ;-)

gostan
11-22-2011, 09:28 AM
I agree...Win is trying to be conservative here. At lease we hope so.

And, right now, Stowe is scheduled to open tomorrow, Wednesday the 23rd top to bottom with its' brand new Forerunner Quad chair on Mansfield. If things break perfectly today, am thinking of driving up tonight and hitting Stowe tomorrow.

HowieT2
11-22-2011, 10:32 AM
The gun is blasting at the base of the super bravo. That's a good sign.

Hawk
11-22-2011, 10:34 AM
We need some more recon! Ducky where are you? Shady????

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 11:01 AM
temperature wise at 11:00 AM the windows on my truck are still frosted over and the temps are holding out at about 28 degrees. The grass is still frosted in the shade.
this is at about 1500 feet.

MntMan4Bush
11-22-2011, 03:49 PM
"The gun is blasting at the base of Super Bravo".

Is any one else concerned this is in the singular sense. "The gun"? Do we only have one? Sometimes it feels that way.

Killington has been open a while now and is already top to bottom and lies further south than us. Stowe opens tomorrow top to bottom. Can't make snow? Really? Or is it "won't" make snow? Which is fine I guess as a business decision, but let's not say "can't" and make it seem otherwise.

Apologies ahead of time. Long day at work and I just want to ski. Guess I'll be heading to Killington this weekend. I'm sure once it dumps snow and everyone's happy everyone will conveniently forget that enough snow was not made to guarantee an opening in time for Thanksgiving like other mountains did.

(Here comes the rants of my use of the word "guarantee" and chastising the machine)

gostan
11-22-2011, 04:04 PM
Two things are in definitely in play here at MRV now. First, we are all chomping at the bit to ski and ride. Second, MRV is no longer DOA. And, of course, Howie can only see the one gun on the snow cam.

HowieT2
11-22-2011, 04:24 PM
"The gun is blasting at the base of Super Bravo".

Is any one else concerned this is in the singular sense. "The gun"? Do we only have one? Sometimes it feels that way.

Killington has been open a while now and is already top to bottom and lies further south than us. Stowe opens tomorrow top to bottom. Can't make snow? Really? Or is it "won't" make snow? Which is fine I guess as a business decision, but let's not say "can't" and make it seem otherwise.

Apologies ahead of time. Long day at work and I just want to ski. Guess I'll be heading to Killington this weekend. I'm sure once it dumps snow and everyone's happy everyone will conveniently forget that enough snow was not made to guarantee an opening in time for Thanksgiving like other mountains did.

(Here comes the rants of my use of the word "guarantee" and chastising the machine)

+1
although I think they will be open for thanksgiving which would be on par with Stowe.

HowieT2
11-22-2011, 04:25 PM
Two things are in definitely in play here at MRV now. First, we are all chomping at the bit to ski and ride. Second, MRV is no longer DOA. And, of course, Howie can only see the one gun on the snow cam.

true dat.

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 04:38 PM
That one gun was cranking out snow so you can load with skis on. Go look at the current forcast. They need all the snow they can make on jester, and downspout. Maybe after they build and sell these condo units they have in the works there will be capitol for expanding snowmaking infrastructure?

gostan
11-22-2011, 06:08 PM
Not looking too good according to Win's Word: http://www.sugarbush.com/blogs/wins-word

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 06:35 PM
After this dump the forecast is rather ugly until next wednesday. Hopefully we will get some freezing temps at night to help preserve what we have. I would expect that things will start to take off the first week of december. Snowmaking will go much faster when it is actually cold out. Not just mid to upper 20's

shadyjay
11-22-2011, 08:13 PM
We need some more recon! Ducky where are you? Shady????

Sorry for the late response.... I don't have Wi-Fi at Heaven's Gate.

Yup, I said that right.

I loaded my first chair today for a group of 3 individuals (my bosses) this morning, and for snowmakers throughout the day. There was definitely more than 1 gun going. We were lit up on Jester, Allyn's and Downspout at LP right through about 2-3 when they started shutting down due to the storm coming in (read: humidity levels rising). The base area had a couple guns going this morning - those new guns are so whisper quiet. Unfortunately I had the old-fashioned loud blasters in my ears all day.

I did manage to hook up my outdoor speakers and could hear them over the roar of the guns.

See y'all soon.... I hope!

bumpcrasher
11-22-2011, 08:39 PM
That one gun was cranking out snow so you can load with skis on. Go look at the current forcast. They need all the snow they can make on jester, and downspout. Maybe after they build and sell these condo units they have in the works there will be capitol for expanding snowmaking infrastructure?

Can we really only make snow on one run at a time at Lincoln Peak? (And no....cant really count Jester/Downsprout as two separate runs) Sunday River and Killington were able to open at least 2 RUNS with about a 48-hour window at the end of October and stay open. Yeah, that is pretty crazy but now Jay, Stowe, Killington, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Bretton Woods, and even Loon will be open for the weekend. Figure the Bush would have at least as much firepower as one of those other mountains?!? (My apologies in advance as I am getting a little weary of driving an hour down Rt. 100 to ski the past few weekends).

djd66
11-22-2011, 09:02 PM
Guys,... get a grip. It is only November 22. Blowing a bunch of snow early only to see it melt away is a waste of money,... until they can see an extended period of cold weather. I would much rather see them blasting out the snow on a regular basis when it counts, not when we have periods of rain followed by 65 degrees.

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 09:27 PM
Sugarbush is probably never going to be able to make snow like Killington, or Sunday River, but then again I don't speak for the resort.

Temperatures play a bigger role than anything. Given temps below zero or in the single digits it becomes much more feasible to cover a trail in a couple of days.
Near 32 degrees it can take 5 days for upper jester alone. I think the real kicker here has been the limited windows with decent temperatures on downspout.

While it would be nice if Sugarbush had substantially more snowmaking capacity and it is easy to make comparisons to other resorts the reality is that it takes money
to make this sort of stuff happen. They do what they can. Running a business is not easy and these guys are industry professionals. I am sure they share many of the same
visions but they know the other side of the story.

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 09:33 PM
Guys,... get a grip. It is only November 22. Blowing a bunch of snow early only to see it melt away is a waste of money,... until they can see an extended period of cold weather. I would much rather see them blasting out the snow on a regular basis when it counts, not when we have periods of rain followed by 65 degrees.

agreed. I don't even know why thanksgiving, or early season skiing is such a big deal. Its fine if the weather is good but I don't know why the market demands it.

MntMan4Bush
11-22-2011, 10:52 PM
The market demands it because 1) I want to go skiing now and 2) I want to go skiing now. Or with all joking aside really it demands it because other mountains are doing it and setting the bar. Some people ski from beginning of season to end and will shell out money (like me who has a SB season pass and will be at Killington this weekend spending money) to go when and where there is snow.

It's not just the lift ticket but the beers I'll buy after, etc. For some it may set a precedent of where they will go for the year. When skiing is an activity anywhere in New England I expect to be able to do it at the mountain I prefer so I want to see SB running right now. If you have voiced your opinion that you are not interested in early season skiing then by all means don't come out and crowd up the one trail that may or may not be open. Otherwise if you want to ski early season voice your opinion so the mountain hears and knows there is a market demand for it.

Also I hardly think all of Killington's snow that was made has melted away. Else how do they continue to open more terrain. So if they can manage how come we can't handle a fraction of it? Just because you blow snow early season it doesn't mean it goes to dirt in a day. Maybe if you put candy in Andy Richter's dish it will disappear that quick, but not necessarily true of man-made snow.

Hawk
11-22-2011, 11:43 PM
agreed. I don't even know why thanksgiving, or early season skiing is such a big deal. Its fine if the weather is good but I don't know why the market demands it.

Dude If that is how you feel then that is fine. It's your opinion and every body has the right. I STRONGLY disagree with anyone who says that early season skiing is not a big deal. I will drive 3 hours this weekend and pay additional money over my pass to ski. There are hundreds of us that will do the same. We ski because we love the sport and have passion. I just think it is funny when people say that it's not worth it. It is.

I also think it is funny when people say that Sugarbush has a good snowmaking system and they make good snow. They don't. If they did then we would be open like many other areas.

It's just how I feel.

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 11:49 PM
It is what it is. 99% of people I know, myself included are perfectly happy with the way Sugarbush does things.

NorthLynx
11-22-2011, 11:57 PM
Dude If that is how you feel then that is fine. It's your opinion and every body has the right. I STRONGLY disagree with anyone who says that early season skiing is not a big deal. I will drive 3 hours this weekend and pay additional money over my pass to ski. There are hundreds of us that will do the same. We ski because we love the sport and have passion. I just think it is funny when people say that it's not worth it. It is.

I also think it is funny when people say that Sugarbush has a good snowmaking system and they make good snow. They don't. If they did then we would be open like many other areas.

It's just how I feel.

I think early season skiing is fine if the conditions are suitable but what I am saying is that I feel that it is something that shouldn't be rushed. In a couple of weeks nobody will care about any of this anymore. I am saying this in general, not directed at any one person but there are better things to do than get worked up over this same old stuff that comes up at the start of every season.

gostan
11-23-2011, 12:02 AM
Just got in to Bragg Hill Rd from Boston. Gotta go to sleep so I can get up early & go to Opening Day @ Stowe tomorrow @ 8 AM to ride the new ForeRunner Quad & ski 2.6 miles top to bottom. i am not complaining. I am happy to get out on my skis. November skiing in the East is a bonus. But, I would certainly prefer to be skiing @ Sugarbush this long Thanksgiving weekend, insead of heading elsewhere to purchase a lift ticket or thinking about hiking up MRG.

NorthLynx
11-23-2011, 12:26 AM
Its dumping. There is about an inch of accumulation so far, so hopefully it keeps adding up.

boze
11-23-2011, 12:49 AM
Whatever the rationale re: making early season snow - "won't" or "can't" - it does not play well when the neighborhood competitors have their early season lifts spinning just not our own, especially at a time when one is trying to pre-sell phase 1 of a new on-mountain development. When thinking about plunking down that kind of dough and planting a root so to speak, one factor folks consider is the length of the mountain's ski season, and the dependability of opening on the early side, staying open / recovering quickly during the inevitable funky weather periods, and staying open on the late side of the season. Sure there are lots of other factors, both objective an subjective. And that includes, to play Devil's Advocate, management prudence and expertise to make the best overall economic decisions. But the snow-making capacity just seems to continue to appear as an Achilles Heel. And I'm an avowed SB fan. Crazy Big Fan. So I hope one of us or Win gets the correct Powerball ticket next time it crests $150MM and do something monumentally crazy good w/ the current system to make my snow-anxiety go away for good - such as a system w/ enough firepower to reverse global warming. Until then, Praise & Give Thanks to Ullr!

groomer
11-23-2011, 06:02 AM
Somebody needs to invent the refrigerated ski trail! Oh, and a bottomless heated coffee cup for my groomer! Happy thanksgiving everyone!
-Groomer O' the Great White North

Hawk
11-23-2011, 07:53 AM
I think early season skiing is fine if the conditions are suitable but what I am saying is that I feel that it is something that shouldn't be rushed. In a couple of weeks nobody will care about any of this anymore. I am saying this in general, not directed at any one person but there are better things to do than get worked up over this same old stuff that comes up at the start of every season.
You will be right in some aspects. Some will not care. A lot of people are jaded or have other irons in the fire like Kids or work. Others are just powder snobs. I am none of these as are many who ski here. We ski any time we can and actually early season is one of my favorites. But consider this. What happens if we get continued warm weather? The other resorts will still be open with even more terrain. You can't say that doesn't have an impact. People do pay attention to this. We have also been blessed with snow for the last few years. What happens when the patten changes? Talk to the old timers. There have been years that this mountain has had only a handfull of trails open in January due to warm weather and big rains. What do you think that will do to the bottom line when vacationers are looking at conditions and see that we are suffering. They are not going to book here.

Hey all I am saying is that the long term success of this mountian will depend on the ability to adapt to the climate. I have a vested interest in this mountain's success. I moved here and bought so that makes me concerned. This is all I am saying. The reason why I have strong opinions is that I made snow in college for a big mountain and know what it takes. I have seen it, lived it and watched it. We can shrug it off but when the Sh*# hits the weather fan it will be a hard lesson.

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 08:57 AM
looks like its dumping on the webcam.
This heavenly snow should clear up some anxiety. can't imagine they wont be open tomorrow. the weekend may be a different story but all the money in the world wont help making snow when its 50 degrees.

MntMan4Bush
11-23-2011, 09:19 AM
99% huh? That's a bold assertion. You know of course that 72% of all statistics are made up right?

I sometimes disagree with some on this thread, but I have to say that Hawk said it best here. The snowmaking in short is poor at SB. We all make excuses in our heads about it and why someone might make a business decision to not make snow, but as a consumer and from that point of view it is horrible snowmaking compared to other mountains around us. (MRG excluded of course, but they don't claim to make snow).

That means for early season, mid season, any time. However there are always a group of apologists that jump in and make grandiose statements like 99% of the people don't ski early season or all the snow will melt away and no snow will be left EVER!!!!! What is this? The summit of Kilimanjaro? Then mother nature eventually bails us out some 3-4 ski-less weeks later and everyone forgets about the fact we missed out on a few weeks of early skiing to get our legs under us and get out and enjoy the mountain. Then the "I told ya sos" start. Told us what? That it would snow in the winter? Nice job Dick Albert. Of course it will snow and we'll get something at some time during the winter.

Even if we do open now it will just be Jester-cross. Don't even try and tell me that from the top of Jester to Heavensgate chair is 27 different trails we'll have open. Last year's start was just as pathetic, skiing only on Jester for 3 weeks straight and only having the ability to open one trail at a time. One can only get blasted in the face by head height snowmaking while running over little children and old women for so long before it gets old, though the first few times are pretty enjoyable. We should be able to get multiple trails open with head height snowmaking and small women and children to run over during that period of time.

Not to make a comparison but I like being the 1% here then. So if any of you want to set up a tent in my yard go ahead. I'll just have you kicked off and continue to ski early season where I can. You can't stop me and you don't even have a legitimate plan to try.

Hawk
11-23-2011, 09:22 AM
looks like its dumping on the webcam.
This heavenly snow should clear up some anxiety. can't imagine they wont be open tomorrow. the weekend may be a different story but all the money in the world wont help making snow when its 50 degrees.

This doesn't seem to be that much of an issue with the other 5 resorts that are open top to bottom.

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 09:28 AM
This doesn't seem to be that much of an issue with the other 5 resorts that are open top to bottom.

none of them will be making snow this weekend either.

NorthLynx
11-23-2011, 09:32 AM
99% huh? That's a bold assertion. You know of course that 72% of all statistics are made up right?

I sometimes disagree with some on this thread, but I have to say that Hawk said it best here. The snowmaking in short is poor at SB. We all make excuses in our heads about it and why someone might make a business decision to not make snow, but as a consumer and from that point of view it is horrible snowmaking compared to other mountains around us. (MRG excluded of course, but they don't claim to make snow).

That means for early season, mid season, any time. However there are always a group of apologists that jump in and make grandiose statements like 99% of the people don't ski early season or all the snow will melt away and no snow will be left EVER!!!!! What is this? The summit of Kilimanjaro? Then mother nature eventually bails us out some 3-4 ski-less weeks later and everyone forgets about the fact we missed out on a few weeks of early skiing to get our legs under us and get out and enjoy the mountain. Then the "I told ya sos" start. Told us what? That it would snow in the winter? Nice job Dick Albert. Of course it will snow and we'll get something at some time during the winter.

Even if we do open now it will just be Jester-cross. Don't even try and tell me that from the top of Jester to Heavensgate chair is 27 different trails we'll have open. Last year's start was just as pathetic, skiing only on Jester for 3 weeks straight and only having the ability to open one trail at a time. One can only get blasted in the face by head height snowmaking while running over little children and old women for so long before it gets old, though the first few times are pretty enjoyable. We should be able to get multiple trails open with head height snowmaking and small women and children to run over during that period of time.

Not to make a comparison but I like being the 1% here then. So if any of you want to set up a tent in my yard go ahead. I'll just have you kicked off and continue to ski early season where I can. You can't stop me and you don't even have a legitimate plan to try.

Not even worth a response. Is this really what this board is, a place to complain about snowmaking?

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 09:41 AM
Not even worth a response. Is this really what this board is, a place to complain about snowmaking?

Yes.

fwiw-IMHO running over women and children never gets old. never.

MntMan4Bush
11-23-2011, 09:46 AM
Is this what this board is really for now? Complaining about people that bring up a valid point even though it is in disagreement with your own? Wouldn't it be nicer if we all agreed with each other and just posted the same thing over and over in perpetual agreement? I think if we just spent all day agreeing with each other I'd have more free time to agree with other like minded people in other forums.

Please. "Not even worth a response". Then by all means don't respond because it's own intrinsic value is equally worthless. Cheers.

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 09:48 AM
Is this what this board is really for now? Complaining about people that bring up a valid point even though it is in disagreement with your own? Wouldn't it be nicer if we all agreed with each other and just posted the same thing over and over in perpetual agreement? I think if we just spent all day agreeing with each other I'd have more free time to agree with other like minded people in other forums.

Please. "Not even worth a response". Then by all means don't respond because it's own intrinsic value is equally worthless. Cheers.

Koombaya

I need a drink and some turkey with triptofan

Hawk
11-23-2011, 09:55 AM
Not even worth a response. Is this really what this board is, a place to complain about snowmaking?

This is just conversation. I am just stating my case for improving snow making. I do make valid points and maybe someone will hear them. I will be skiing this weekend. Somewhere. Was just hoping it would be at the mountain that I love and reside at.

Hawk
11-23-2011, 09:57 AM
Is this what this board is really for now? Complaining about people that bring up a valid point even though it is in disagreement with your own? Wouldn't it be nicer if we all agreed with each other and just posted the same thing over and over in perpetual agreement? I think if we just spent all day agreeing with each other I'd have more free time to agree with other like minded people in other forums.

Please. "Not even worth a response". Then by all means don't respond because it's own intrinsic value is equally worthless. Cheers.

If I wanted that I would just go to the Sunday River Board. ;-)

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 10:02 AM
I just looked at stowes trail report and while they are open top to bottom, they really only have 3 trails open. That being said, with a foot of natural snow, having only jester and downspout open is, how do you say it, "weak sauce".
Because of that I've made the executive decision not to bring my crew up this weekend or next. we have some other stuff to do and can't really justify it for a few runs.

Hawk
11-23-2011, 10:11 AM
If that was open Howie, I would ski the SH*# out of it, love it and say thank you!!!!

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 10:23 AM
If that was open Howie, I would ski the SH*# out of it, love it and say thank you!!!!

love your enthusiasm, but no idea wtf you're talking about.

and I might add, to those of you complaining about the dearth of open trails for you to ski this weekend, I'll be trapped at the inlaws with no cell service or internet, or snow for that matter.I'd trade places with you in a heartbeat. just sayin'

bumpcrasher
11-23-2011, 10:37 AM
none of them will be making snow this weekend either.

AGREED!! All the open resorts this weekend: Okemo, Killington, Stowe, Jay, Bretton Woods, Loon, Sugarloaf, and Sunday River have aleady made sufficient snow to STAY open (some with multiple trails and open top to bottom). I dont think they have refrigerated trails either?!?!?

To those that believe there is not a "market" for early season turns, I must respectfully disagree. I have seen plenty of Bush regulars amongst the fully loaded chairlifts over the past few weekends. The vast majority of those customers were sporting day-tickets.

othripper
11-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Personally, as a long-time valley resident, I wouldn't trade all the early season snowmaking in the world for having Win own the place. I think we are lucky having him own the ski area. I doubt SB has turned a profit in years, and despite that Win keeps on subsidizing and improving SB. He and his wife also donated 200k personally to the Valley Community fund after Irene this year, and got his friends to to pony up another 200k from the Grace Potter concert, and he supports lots of other valley events. Did POWDR or AIG or whoever owns those other mountains do that? And one thing I've noticed is that when MRG is open the skiing at SB is pretty good, and when MRG is closed, the skiing at SB is pretty poor, no matter what.

Come on guys, it's been years since SB has played the early opening game. This is old news. If you want early opening, go somewhere else. Win loves to ski as much as we do and can't wait to get out there either. He shows up all over the mountain on any given day, and he's proven himself over the years. I like that, and having someone like him own the place is worth a lot to me.

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 10:48 AM
Personally, as a long-time valley resident, I wouldn't trade all the early season snowmaking in the world for having Win own the place. I think we are lucky having him own the ski area. I doubt SB has turned a profit in years, and despite that Win keeps on subsidizing and improving SB. He and his wife also donated 200k personally to the Valley Community fund after Irene this year, and got his friends to to pony up another 200k from the Grace Potter concert, and he supports lots of other valley events. Did POWDR or AIG or whoever owns those other mountains do that? And one thing I've noticed is that when MRG is open the skiing at SB is pretty good, and when MRG is closed, the skiing at SB is pretty poor, no matter what.

Come on guys, it's been years since SB has played the early opening game. This is old news. If you want early opening, go somewhere else. Win loves to ski as much as we do and can't wait to get out there either. He shows up all over the mountain on any given day, and he's proven himself over the years. I like that, and having someone like him own the place is worth a lot to me.

nobody said anything that could be construed as negative about Win. We all know how lucky SB is to have him as its steward. Just talking about snowmaking. that's it.

MntMan4Bush
11-23-2011, 10:59 AM
I don't remember questioning Win's character in any of my posts. If I did sorry. If I didn't then you should be sorry for bringing up an irrelevant piece of information to skew the point at hand.

Yes Win is great. I say this with no sarcasm at all. SB continues to improve and as a masshole driving 3 hours each way to ski I'd rather be there than any other mountain. It's embedded itself nicely as my mountain of choice where I was only able to log in a meager 45 days of skiing at last year. That's right 45 days for which I drove 3 hours each way to get to. There are many who skied more (I can think of another masshole on this thread that skied over 80 days last year and is not a VT resident) and people who drive even further than I do. All of come for a reason. It's a great mountain and many of us have seen it change ownership and agree it's in great hands right now.

None of those points are relevant though. What is relevant is the fact that Sugarbush claims to make snow and have good product. Looking at the current open mountains I'd disagree. No one is yelling at MRG here about snowmaking. I will in fact be at Killington this weekend, no doubt in line with other SB regulars who wished their mountain was open. And a point brought up is that when it eventually does open it will still be leagues behind other mountains unless mother nature kicks in with a furry.

Also I'm not sure how this is old news. If SB started making lots of snow 5 years ago and continued to do so it would be old news. The fact that the trails are not open and snow is not blasting now is current news.

Nick
11-23-2011, 11:06 AM
Koombaya

I need a drink and some turkey with triptofan

Sounds like a plan to me.....

othripper
11-23-2011, 11:10 AM
Buddy, I'll bring up any point I want, and if you found somewhere where I said that you questioned Win's character then let me know. My point is that I like things just fine here, and having Win run the place is worth not having early opening to me. ASC used to be able to open the summit at North in just 3 cold days, so it has been done in the past, but who would I rather have run the mountain? ASC with early opening or Win with opening tomorrow? I'll take Win in a heartbeat. Also, SB has said that they planned to open on the 19th for months. They have never claimed to open early like Killington. And yes, it is old news that SB doesn't play the early opening game any more, it's been that way for years.

There's more to running a mountain that opening real early. That's the point I was trying to make, and to me, I like the way things are here.

Just my opinion, you can disagree.

MntMan4Bush
11-23-2011, 11:11 AM
It's not Buddy. It's Pal.

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 11:12 AM
I don't remember questioning Win's character in any of my posts. If I did sorry. If I didn't then you should be sorry for bringing up an irrelevant piece of information to skew the point at hand.

Yes Win is great. I say this with no sarcasm at all. SB continues to improve and as a masshole driving 3 hours each way to ski I'd rather be there than any other mountain. It's embedded itself nicely as my mountain of choice where I was only able to log in a meager 45 days of skiing at last year. That's right 45 days for which I drove 3 hours each way to get to. There are many who skied more (I can think of another masshole on this thread that skied over 80 days last year and is not a VT resident) and people who drive even further than I do. All of come for a reason. It's a great mountain and many of us have seen it change ownership and agree it's in great hands right now.

None of those points are relevant though. What is relevant is the fact that Sugarbush claims to make snow and have good product. Looking at the current open mountains I'd disagree. No one is yelling at MRG here about snowmaking. I will in fact be at Killington this weekend, no doubt in line with other SB regulars who wished their mountain was open. And a point brought up is that when it eventually does open it will still be leagues behind other mountains unless mother nature kicks in with a furry.

Also I'm not sure how this is old news. If SB started making lots of snow 5 years ago and continued to do so it would be old news. The fact that the trails are not open and snow is not blasting now is current news.

furthermore, with the investments they have made in the last couple of years in new pipes and new "revolutionary" snow guns, one would hope to see some improved performance. in my mind the question remains, is the capacity to make sufficient snow available? if so, is the lack of top to bottom skiing the result of strategic decisions or what? forget of about killington, but if stowe is top to bottom, why isnt SB?

HowieT2
11-23-2011, 11:16 AM
Buddy, I'll bring up any point I want, and if you found somewhere where I said that you questioned Win's character then let me know. My point is that I like things just fine here, and having Win run the place is worth not having early opening to me. ASC used to be able to open the summit at North in just 3 cold days, so it has been done in the past, but who would I rather have run the mountain? ASC with early opening or Win with opening tomorrow? I'll take Win in a heartbeat. Also, SB has said that they planned to open on the 19th for months. They have never claimed to open early like Killington. And yes, it is old news that SB doesn't play the early opening game any more, it's been that way for years.

There's more to running a mountain that opening real early. That's the point I was trying to make, and to me, I like the way things are here.



Just my opinion, you can disagree.

completely agree but there's nothing wrong with being critical of the snowmaking situation.

Treeskier
11-23-2011, 11:18 AM
AGREED!! All the open resorts this weekend: Okemo, Killington, Stowe, Jay, Bretton Woods, Loon, Sugarloaf, and Sunday River have aleady made sufficient snow to STAY open (some with multiple trails and open top to bottom). I dont think they have refrigerated trails either?!?!?

To those that believe there is not a "market" for early season turns, I must respectfully disagree. I have seen plenty of Bush regulars amongst the fully loaded chairlifts over the past few weekends. The vast majority of those customers were sporting day-tickets.

I agree with Bumpcrasher. We should be top to bottom edge to edge on at least one way down, by now to be competitive. They should go back to ASC's plan and rent the compresses for early snow making. Plus start stock piling, on the first long cold event in the fall, that has been the last few days of Oct.

This was taken on our deck this morning
http://clubxtaski.com/111123_Deck.JPG

bumpcrasher
11-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Personally, as a long-time valley resident, I wouldn't trade all the early season snowmaking in the world for having Win own the place. I think we are lucky having him own the ski area. I doubt SB has turned a profit in years, and despite that Win keeps on subsidizing and improving SB. He and his wife also donated 200k personally to the Valley Community fund after Irene this year, and got his friends to to pony up another 200k from the Grace Potter concert, and he supports lots of other valley events. Did POWDR or AIG or whoever owns those other mountains do that? And one thing I've noticed is that when MRG is open the skiing at SB is pretty good, and when MRG is closed, the skiing at SB is pretty poor, no matter what.

Come on guys, it's been years since SB has played the early opening game. This is old news. If you want early opening, go somewhere else. Win loves to ski as much as we do and can't wait to get out there either. He shows up all over the mountain on any given day, and he's proven himself over the years. I like that, and having someone like him own the place is worth a lot to me.


WHOA....I figured we were simply commenting about the lack of snowmaking and not advocating a takeover by AIG!!

As for having to wait for MRG to open before getting "good skiing" at the Bush....MRG did not open until Christmas Eve and there were some phenomenal days at both Lincoln and Mt. Ellen well before that.

othripper
11-23-2011, 11:46 AM
completely agree but there's nothing wrong with being critical of the snowmaking situation.


of course not, I guess after about 6 pages of it though, I sort of lost it....and I guess I try to avoid the competitive thing these days. SB is behind in the snow making arena, I must agree with you about that, but we are way ahead in other areas, which is why you guys are here. If all that mattered to you was the snowmaking capabilities of the mountain, then you probably wouldn't be in the mrv.

Have a great Thanksgiving everybody!

win
11-23-2011, 03:39 PM
Happy Thankgiving. What you see is what we got. Being open first is not our goal. Being one of the last to stay open is!

Hawk
11-23-2011, 07:17 PM
I can understand the eccomonics of competing with the other powerhouses. No one is asking to open in October. All I ask is to open on schedule as many other areas did. The rest is just one big wish list. If that was not clear then I am sorry.

Tin Woodsman
11-24-2011, 02:00 PM
I can understand the eccomonics of competing with the other powerhouses. No one is asking to open in October. All I ask is to open on schedule as many other areas did. The rest is just one big wish list. If that was not clear then I am sorry.
Amen to that. SB isn't, and shouldn't, be competing for the early opening title. That said, when a place like Loon, with a base elevation of 800' is open top to bottom, and SB can't match that despite higher elevation and latitude, it kind of smarts. That feels more like a business decision than meteorology.

beelze
11-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Nothing else explains other places (smaller, lower) having at least some top/bottom open. The weather in the valley is not significantly different from Stowe or K or other places in NH so that one would have many more nights suitable for snowmaking. Sugarbush (aka Win) can be first, last or somewhere in between in regards the opening and clearly last is the place chosen. And while Sugarbush/Win like to trumpet staying open "late", other places do that too. And lets not forget the ever later opening and ever earlier closings of Mt. Ellen (relative to years past.) There to, business decisions. Likewise the ticket/pass costs - Sugarbush does not give any significant discount (if any at all) compared to the other facilities of similar size and stature. Win is famous for telling people to sell their places and go elsewhere if they don't like it - a viable option I suppose in a better housing market. So it is what it is and no matter how much people on here want to bitch about it, you are not going to have any effect on the mountains decision making proce$$. Is Win getting filthy rich following this course? Probably not. But were I to guess, he's probably making a lot more per ski/boarder than the other places.

That said, I think most of us are here for the snow on the mountain and not for the architecture. If I were to ask for anything, lets stop making new buildings and keep revamping the snowmaking and lifts.

HowieT2
11-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Nothing else explains other places (smaller, lower) having at least some top/bottom open. The weather in the valley is not significantly different from Stowe or K or other places in NH so that one would have many more nights suitable for snowmaking. Sugarbush (aka Win) can be first, last or somewhere in between in regards the opening and clearly last is the place chosen. And while Sugarbush/Win like to trumpet staying open "late", other places do that too. And lets not forget the ever later opening and ever earlier closings of Mt. Ellen (relative to years past.) There to, business decisions. Likewise the ticket/pass costs - Sugarbush does not give any significant discount (if any at all) compared to the other facilities of similar size and stature. Win is famous for telling people to sell their places and go elsewhere if they don't like it - a viable option I suppose in a better housing market. So it is what it is and no matter how much people on here want to bitch about it, you are not going to have any effect on the mountains decision making proce$$. Is Win getting filthy rich following this course? Probably not. But were I to guess, he's probably making a lot more per ski/boarder than the other places.

That said, I think most of us are here for the snow on the mountain and not for the architecture. If I were to ask for anything, lets stop making new buildings and keep revamping the snowmaking and lifts.

we've been down this road before and it's the new buildings, specifically residential condos, that pay for revamping snowmaking and lifts. Obviously, the schoolhouse and farmhouse werent revenue producing, but I doubt anyone would argue that they werent necessary given the state of structures they replaced.

and fwiw-the season pass pricing is on par with the competition.

Hawk
11-29-2011, 08:44 AM
Not bitching. Discussion! No one is truely mad. At least for me it is a big wish list thing.
OK simply put this is how I see it....
Some people are rosey colored glasses people and just love the world the way it is.
Some people are busy in the fall with family things like soccer or B-Ball or work or Things....
Some people are powder snobs that have no use for snow making.
Some people are crusty old Vermonters that just plain hate change.
Some people think that the current management can do no wrong.
Some people have not experienced good snow making and just don't understand.

Some people just cannot or will not ski early season for many different reasons. Whatever your reason for thinking that improved snowmaking is not good, I just do not see it that way. I always want to ski. That is me.....just my opinion. I have seen the benefit first hand of good snow making and think that it is necessary for growth and viability of this resort. Will it get done, probably not. But it is something that I like to discuss when I am waiting to ski again. ;-)

madhavok
11-29-2011, 09:21 AM
You guys need to lay off the 420.


LEEEEEEEEROYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MntMan4Bush
11-29-2011, 07:59 PM
Awwww man you just been Havok'd.

In any case I think the issue is that every time something comes up everyone 100% of the time likes to go to the extreme side of it. Every time.

As mentioned I went to Killington on Friday and to do the Taster's Choice challenge since SB was open I went to SB on Saturday and Sunday. Now I'm not saying we should be toe to toe with Killington, but we weren't even close.

So to dispel some rumors, which everyone always does all the time. 100% no exceptions:

1) Killington had 3 full parking lots worth of people, possibly more, but that's all I saw. There was never much of a wait on any of the 7 lifts that were open. Maybe a 2-3 minute wait and every chair went up full until about 3 PM when it died down a bit. If that represents just 1% of the people that ski there then holy crap that's a lot of people. It felt like there were more people that day than I have ever seen at SB on any given day mid-season. I'm talking roving mobs of people coming down at once. (One reason I like SB so much and have a pass here)

2) There were 23 open trails listed I think which equated to about 13 real runs with some top to bottom. For the record I consider Upper Jester, Downspout to Allyn's (Good luck finding that on a map kids) one run/trail. It's like counting Upper Panorama to Lower Panorama to Rim Run to Upper Looking Good to Lower Looking Good to Lower Rim Run as six trails open. They also opened up a few more throughout the day to include about 4-5 natural snow trails. In case anyone was wondering it did not ALL melt. Nor do I think it will post this week and after this catastrophe moving in this week I'm sure they will be in a much better position to get back up and running.

3) The entire mountain was white which just had a great feel to it and the man made and natural snow ski'd great. A bit thin on natural trails, but nice. Great bumps on some runs. Others were groomed and offered variety.

4) The lodges were pretty full too with people buying food and drinks etc.

5) Anyone who wants snowmaking does not want to go back to ASC days or to AIG. Does anyone really think AIG is in a position to buy anyways? So if I like early season skiing I must want ASC back. Yes please. Of course.

That all being said the 1 trail open at SB was pretty decent. I'll go so far as to say good, but I enjoy skiing bumps. The snow was soft and seemed of good quality. The rollers on Jester I could have done without, but dare I say it, I actually enjoyed Downspout. Not sure I've ever uttered those words before, but there it was.

So in summary Killington wasn't just a bit better, it was substantially better and all I'm asking here is that we do a bit more. Maybe 2 runs open? Could we get Organgrinder or Ripcord open? 3 runs? Not saying we need to compete fully and have 23+ trails open, but can we at least blow in more than one area? Maybe Spring Fling and get the double running too? I seem to recall a few years back Spring Fling opening early and it being absolutely blasted with snow and beautiful bumps.

As for late season claims at SB I think a lack of snowmaking last year led to a pretty thin Stein's and it was more Mother Nature that bailed us out in longevity. Just saying.

So now that we sold a couple thousand 20+ passes we should have some quid in our pockets right? Let's get some man made blowing as soon as we can and we'll forget all about trying to jam another 2000 people into the boot room.

itsallaboutpow
11-30-2011, 10:09 AM
Its pretty simple .. you NEED man made snow if you want a successful ski season in Vt. Stowe is again open, top to BOTTOM today, even after all the warm weather and rain we had .. just saying ...

skierdon
11-30-2011, 12:16 PM
Unfortunately the weather forecast through December will only compound issues with snowmaking capabilities. From what I read there is little hope for sustained snowmaking temps over the next few weeks..... will be interesting to see how it plays out and if the mountain will be able to significantly expland terrain before the holidays.

HowieT2
11-30-2011, 12:21 PM
The pattern is undeniably bad, but it looks like the next several nights are cold enough for snowmaking.

boze
11-30-2011, 02:25 PM
Had extended family up Tues - Sun, staying in house on main mountain at SB. All 12 of them bailed to ski and spend their $ at Killington Thurs-Sat. It was not possible to argue with them on their decision. As MtnMan points out the comparison on open terrain wasn't even close. By a long shot. I skied w/ my son Thanksgiving at Sb and conditions were decent to good just very, very, very limited in options. Enjoyed the bumps, snow quality was quite good, but I'm not really a guy who want to scoot down the same stretch of trail all day long. Variety is nice, so that was the end of the time on the hill this trip. Yeah I know it was early season, still the comparison between the two resorts was quite stark indeed. And heaven knows what would have happened had Ma Nature not deposited 12" of that high density snow Tues into Wed. The Catch22 here was we had friends up as well who are actively looking for a resort on which to build or buy a ski house, and SB did not come out of the this holiday comparing well to a couple of the other 'big boy' mtns they are considering. I know it takes $ often from real estate sales to fund the big capital improvement projects like snowmaking but the current state of affairs is, at least for this family, likely to have them conclude their ski home hunt elsewhere as season length for them matters.

HowieT2
11-30-2011, 04:33 PM
Its pretty simple .. you NEED man made snow if you want a successful ski season in Vt. Stowe is again open, top to BOTTOM today, even after all the warm weather and rain we had .. just saying ...

correct me if Im wrong but I dont think stowe was open top to bottom today and if it was they were moving snow to fill in gaps.

villager
11-30-2011, 09:56 PM
Great discussions here. Can anyone give a current snow making status for those of us flat-landers trying to make weekend plans? It seems like it should be cold enough to make snow the next few nights. Not sure if SB is trying to re-open for the weekend. Thanks!

gostan
12-01-2011, 06:19 AM
Long and short of it, is that Now that November is over, I have seen nearly identical reports on 4 Boaton TV stations confirming what we all know. This past November was the second warmest November since they have been keeping such weather records. In fact, the last 5 months have averaged almost 6 degrees warmer than the norm. And, unfortunately, December is also looking to average higher temps than normal.

I am glad that I got my skiing fix temporarily semi-satisfied last week with 1 day @ Stowe and 4 @ SB.

I am not pandering when I say that I really do not care what the Beast or Stowe or even the LOONs of NE are opening or keeping opening for trail counts and terrain. I do care to know how SB plans to catch up on blanketing terrain @ Lincoln Peak once temps get and keep below freezing with what is looking like a dirtth of snow maker snow falls over the month of December. My main concern is that with the requirement to blow snow on both Lincoln and Mount Ellen (opening 12-16?), that we skiers and riders will end up with very limited and crowded terrain on 2 separate mountains, when all efforts might be better served to flood one mountain with as much snow as possible. Yes, I understand the reasons why this is part of the SB plans, and Ido not fully understand the workings of the SB snow inking system, but, for me, this is more of a problem than worrying about what the other ski areas are doing. If SB cannot yet blow enough snow to get one trail open top to bottom on one mountain, then, why split the limited snowmaking resources. In biz, I have always believed in one great development project, than two "maybe" projects. Let's blow the heck out of either Lincoln or Mount Ellen.

Time to do some more cold cold bring on the cold dancing......and, maybe to book some tix west when the semi-satisfied fix wears off, for some December reinvigorated skiing.

ducky
12-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Stan, I think some of the reason for snowmaking at Mt Eiien is to accommodate GMVS. GMVS directly purchased some of the new technology snow guns (and allows SB to use them in other areas of MtE after Inverness is done) They also contribute roughly $400 extra per student in season pass fees, this X about 100 kids = $40,000. Additionally, they installed their own T-bar (which connects to Poma) to allow them to use Inverness autonomously of the Mt operations and during wind/weather holds. They represent Sugarbush at events all over the country, and the US Ski Team and many colleges, and do very well in the results, largely as a result of the training opportunities made available at Sugarbush/Inverness. In addition to the Academy, GMVS has a ski club with over 100 families (300+ total), drawing from as far as NJ. Many of these members, and Academy families, become second homeowners, even residents and business owners. As an entity, they contribute much to the Resort and to the Valley. Lastly, they host many races during the season, bringing up to 300 competitors from other areas/resorts to each race. For this reason alone, it is important to have Inverness in its best condition possible.

While Inverness may be closed to the public for safety reasons during racing or training, it is always open to the public before and after.

To me, the relationship, and the need to make snow at MtE, seems a win win. No pun intended.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 09:38 AM
Isnt the snowmaking at ME separate from LP?

What's interesting to me is that there have been investments made into the snowmaking system in the last few years but has the capacity/performance increased. hard for any of us to know with all the variables, most significantly weather conditions, involved. SB has chosen to invest in new high efficiency nozzles whereas other resorts seem to have gone the fan gun route. they did demo some fan guns the past couple of years.

Hrdstrt
12-01-2011, 10:11 AM
I think it might be worth mentioning. A more efficient snow gun, doesn't necessarily mean it makes more snow. It likely makes the same amount of snow, using less air(therefore less electricity). I think some have made the leap that if told the guns are 50% more efficient, you expect 50% more snow given equal conditions. Where it likely means that at 50% efficiency, you just have a smaller bill from the electric company(and the same amount of snow). This is speculation on my part, but I'd guess you'd still have to force the same amount of water out of a gun to make a given amount of snow.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 10:19 AM
I think it might be worth mentioning. A more efficient snow gun, doesn't necessarily mean it makes more snow. It likely makes the same amount of snow, using less air(therefore less electricity). I think some have made the leap that if told the guns are 50% more efficient, you expect 50% more snow given equal conditions. Where it likely means that at 50% efficiency, you just have a smaller bill from the electric company(and the same amount of snow). This is speculation on my part, but I'd guess you'd still have to force the same amount of water out of a gun to make a given amount of snow.

true but there was speculation that the limitation on the capacity of the system was due to the compressors and how much air they can pump out. therefore if the new nozzles use less air, than the maximum snow output should increase accordingly. of course this is all speculation.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 10:29 AM
Hrdstrt is correct. Same amount of snow less air. But one would think that if they use less air per gun, you could run more guns. Right. We have not seen this yet.

ducky
12-01-2011, 10:30 AM
The guns are blazing from top of Jester through Downspout. Let's hope they can keep them on.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 10:33 AM
The guns are blazing from top of Jester through Downspout. Let's hope they can keep them on.

and at the base of the superbravo, fwiw.

ducky
12-01-2011, 10:40 AM
http://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4425&ac=0&Itemid=42

sglatham
12-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Beside cash (and temps), the two constraints on snowmaking are air and water. Will a more efficient snow gun make more snow? I believe not, it just uses less air but same amount of water = same amount of snow. BUT, if you have plenty of water, then a more efficient snow gun will allow an area to use more guns and this make more snow. So each gun makes same amount snow, but the mountain (assuming water supply) can make more snow.

This winter is looking to be much more challenging weatherwise. It will be interesting to see how aggressive Sugarbush gets at the season unfolds.

In the meantime, THINK SNOW and do those SNOW DANCES!!!!

Hrdstrt
12-01-2011, 11:10 AM
But one would think that if they use less air per gun, you could run more guns. Right. We have not seen this yet.No idea what the actual number is, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lets say you could put enough water up the hill to run 20 guns that were the old style. Wouldn't you still be only able to run 20 new style guns? In effect, the water becomes the limiting reagent. I don't think the water pipe is a big loop, so I think there is a finite amount of water in any one pipe on any one trail on the hill.
For example:
If you have 5 hydrants on the hill for one trail. Last year it used the old guns(1 per hydrant). This year the new guns are use, and since they 50% more efficient, you decide to put 2 guns per hydrant. Problem is you don't get any more water out of the hydrant, so even with two guns, you don't get any more snow.
So am I correct to think the higher up the hill you go, the more branches you have in the pipe, and therefore less access to water?

This is not meant as justification of use/non use. Just trying to understand the physics.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 11:24 AM
I have been told many times that water is not the issue. They have plenty of capacity to pump water up the hill especially since they replaced the water main up the access road last year and replaced the pump at Heavens gate. Volume of air has always been the issue. They only have a few compressors and Win is not keen on bringing in desel powered complessors. There are also issues with the aging system leaking air. Win also has mentioned that they have restrictions on the amount of power consuption during peak times. I do not think this is an issue early season.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 11:52 AM
No idea what the actual number is, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lets say you could put enough water up the hill to run 20 guns that were the old style. Wouldn't you still be only able to run 20 new style guns? In effect, the water becomes the limiting reagent. I don't think the water pipe is a big loop, so I think there is a finite amount of water in any one pipe on any one trail on the hill.
For example:
If you have 5 hydrants on the hill for one trail. Last year it used the old guns(1 per hydrant). This year the new guns are use, and since they 50% more efficient, you decide to put 2 guns per hydrant. Problem is you don't get any more water out of the hydrant, so even with two guns, you don't get any more snow.
So am I correct to think the higher up the hill you go, the more branches you have in the pipe, and therefore less access to water?

This is not meant as justification of use/non use. Just trying to understand the physics.

you are correct assuming the system was operating at maximum water capacity, but as I said before, the speculation here in prior discussions, was that it was not. that if they added more air, either through more compressors (hence the rented diesel compressors of years past) or fan guns (on board compressors), they could increase capacity and make more snow at a given time.

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 11:57 AM
I have been told many times that water is not the issue. They have plenty of capacity to pump water up the hill especially since they replaced the water main up the access road last year and replaced the pump at Heavens gate. Volume of air has always been the issue. They only have a few compressors and Win is not keen on bringing in desel powered complessors. There are also issues with the aging system leaking air. Win also has mentioned that they have restrictions on the amount of power consuption during peak times. I do not think this is an issue early season.

there is a power issue but that shouldnt be a limiting factor at night during the week early in the season. and again, the less air required the less electricity used, so if power was the limiting factor they should be able to make more snow with the same power usage.

atkinson
12-01-2011, 12:09 PM
During the last round of snowmaking, Win said we were able to run more guns at once than ever before, due to the new efficiencies. I don't have raw numbers to compare, but the new guns have made a difference.

Somewhat unrelated, but exciting nonetheless, we are blowing snow at both Mount Ellen and Lincoln Peak currently.

John

Hawk
12-01-2011, 12:15 PM
How is this weekend looking John? Any news on opening?

gostan
12-01-2011, 12:42 PM
Isnt the snowmaking at ME separate from LP?
I assume that technically this must be correct. But I also assume that a splitting of resources is a splitting of resources. As a real estate developer, I know that when I have two projects going on simultaneously, one always gets more attention than the other. If an excavator breaks down, one of the projects has to suffer over the other one as every business must prioritize its' resources. Supporting GMVS is obviously important in the big picture and I do not mean to minimize this at all as an important priority. And, I had a few extremely enjoyable days and runs at Mount Ellen last season. Can't wait for Exterminator and some of the glades over at Mount Ellen to open.

Hrdstrt
12-01-2011, 12:52 PM
I think you might be missing the point. I'm not suggesting one way or the other the state of mind of decisions. Nor am I suggesting any present limitation.

What I'm asking is this(completely imaginary numbers):
If the intake at the pond is sucking in water at a rate of 50 gallons per minute. All hydrants all the mountain are closed. Can you turn on one hydrant on downspout and expect 50 gallons per minute? My guess is no.
So you might be able to fill a 50 gallon barrel of water near the snow making pond in about a minute. However, one hydrant may not be able to handle that rate, so it flows 5 gallons per minute. You can still fill the barrel, it just takes ten minutes.
So my thought is that while there may not be a limit on the quantity of water, there has to be a limit on the rate.

My point is increasing air efficiency, does not always equate to more snow. While a better snow gun may result in more snow over time, it does not mean more snow instantly. While there may not be an overall water limit, there has to be a limit of water by time. Doubling the amount of guns in one area, will not help if the water infrastructure can't support it. At some point water has to be a limiting factor.

Not offering excuses. Just hoping to promote a little more content, rather than speculation based upon speculation. I rarely visit, as the bashing seems to be a sport here at times. Venting frustration is fine in my book, just hate to see bashing based on assumption and speculation.

Hawk
12-01-2011, 01:53 PM
No they do not have a water issue. They have booster pumps on the hill. These boost the pressure and keep it consistent all over the hill. The pressure drop is minimal The amount of water and water pressure that they have can sustain more guns than they are currently using. The problem is with the air. Is that more clear?

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 02:56 PM
I think you might be missing the point. I'm not suggesting one way or the other the state of mind of decisions. Nor am I suggesting any present limitation.

What I'm asking is this(completely imaginary numbers):
If the intake at the pond is sucking in water at a rate of 50 gallons per minute. All hydrants all the mountain are closed. Can you turn on one hydrant on downspout and expect 50 gallons per minute? My guess is no.
So you might be able to fill a 50 gallon barrel of water near the snow making pond in about a minute. However, one hydrant may not be able to handle that rate, so it flows 5 gallons per minute. You can still fill the barrel, it just takes ten minutes.
So my thought is that while there may not be a limit on the quantity of water, there has to be a limit on the rate.

My point is increasing air efficiency, does not always equate to more snow. While a better snow gun may result in more snow over time, it does not mean more snow instantly. While there may not be an overall water limit, there has to be a limit of water by time. Doubling the amount of guns in one area, will not help if the water infrastructure can't support it. At some point water has to be a limiting factor.

Not offering excuses. Just hoping to promote a little more content, rather than speculation based upon speculation. I rarely visit, as the bashing seems to be a sport here at times. Venting frustration is fine in my book, just hate to see bashing based on assumption and speculation.

We are all speculating to some degree because we are not in a position to know the facts other than the bits and pieces that are fed to us. one thing we do know is that in the past, they had rented diesel compressors to supplement what they had, and still have now, so as to increase the capacity of the system to make snow. with more air, they were able to make more snow. Therefore, we know that the amount of snow they can make at any given time is limited by the amount of air, not water. furthermore, we know that last summer they invested in new water pipes, so if anything, they should be able to pump more water now than in the past.
We also know for a fact, that GMP has, at times of peak demand, limited the amount of electricity the resort can use. while this can be a limiting factor in recovering from a thaw by blasting snow on a weekend in mid january, it shouldnt be an issue now.

as an aside, I dont see where all this "bashing" is on this board. all i see is respectful disagreement. and where's Tin with all this snow making talk. Tin? Tin? Bueller Bueller?

southvillager
12-01-2011, 03:28 PM
It is not uncommon for a ski area to need extra air in the fall.

Back in the '80s I sold construction equipment. My employer rented those large diesel 1300CFM compressors to the ski resorts. The compressors were about the size of a full sized van. Killington was a big customer. Also Whaleback, Wildcat, Okemo, little guys like Crotched, King Pine, lots of others. We did so much business, we had a mechanic on the road going from resort to resort doing routine maintenance. They take them around Oct 15, and turn them in sometime in January. I guess by January they had enough cover to fall back on the compressors that the resort owned. During the summer the same machines were used at southern ports to load or unload some type of commodity from large ships. Of course that was 25 years ago. But I would guess that a 2 or 3 month rental of a group of those portables would give a huge boost to the early season.

Hrdstrt
12-01-2011, 03:44 PM
ugg. I'm not explaining myself well. I'm not saying they have reached any limit.

I'm saying that water will always be a limiting reagent on snommaking. Makes no difference whether you are talking about Sugarbush, Sunday River, Mad River or Vail.

Some here suggested that the new more efficient guns should be able to produce more snow. I suggest that they produce the same amount of snow, it just takes less energy to do so.

What I understood to be suggested next was that if the guns take up half the energy, why not just double up on the guns? (energy savings be damned, I want snow!). I suggest this:
On any given trail. They'll have x number of hydrants and guns to make snow. If you want to add a gun, you need to either add a hydrant or do a y pipe off the hydrant. At some point you'd get pressure drop on the water side.

I'm not saying that is what is at issue HERE.
Just trying to say there is a trade off somewhere, and there always has to be. If you double the guns, you have to double the rate you move the water at(or allow extra time).

Perhaps bashing was too extreme of a word. Would you accept Spirited internet based discussion?

HowieT2
12-01-2011, 03:52 PM
ugg. I'm not explaining myself well. I'm not saying they have reached any limit.

I'm saying that water will always be a limiting reagent on snommaking. Makes no difference whether you are talking about Sugarbush, Sunday River, Mad River or Vail.

Some here suggested that the new more efficient guns should be able to produce more snow. I suggest that they produce the same amount of snow, it just takes less energy to do so.

What I understood to be suggested next was that if the guns take up half the energy, why not just double up on the guns? (energy savings be damned, I want snow!). I suggest this:
On any given trail. They'll have x number of hydrants and guns to make snow. If you want to add a gun, you need to either add a hydrant or do a y pipe off the hydrant. At some point you'd get pressure drop on the water side.

I'm not saying that is what is at issue HERE.
Just trying to say there is a trade off somewhere, and there always has to be. If you double the guns, you have to double the rate you move the water at(or allow extra time).

Perhaps bashing was too extreme of a word. Would you accept Spirited internet based discussion?

you are right. there is a finite amount of water being pumped so at some point that limits how much snow can be produced.

what i'll take right now is a fooking drink with some ice.

atkinson
12-01-2011, 04:04 PM
No official word on the weekend yet, but things are looking good. The Rail Jam is a go.

MEllen and LP have separate snowmaking systems. Both draw power from GMP and these loads can be very significant, enough that they can shut us down when demand is high.

John

gostan
12-01-2011, 04:46 PM
I wish we were using our shovels and skiing instead of wasting time on the internet.

NorthLynx
12-01-2011, 05:54 PM
I took a walk around the base today and they had two Techno Alpin T40 fan guns setup and ready to go. I have only seen one in past seasons.

From what I have heard diesel compressors are not very economical due to higher fuel prices, environmental regulations, and that resorts that have
utilized them heavily are trying to move away from them. Sugarbush did bring in a couple of rental compressors a few seasons ago as a last resort.

Hawk
12-02-2011, 07:59 AM
you are right. there is a finite amount of water being pumped so at some point that limits how much snow can be produced.

what i'll take right now is a fooking drink with some ice.
So here is my final word on this as I think we have beat this up enough. The fact is that right now they have ample water supply and pressure to blow snow out of more hydrants. This is not speculation it is truth. If you notice, they only blow one route at a time and to start the season and that is Jester-spout. The question that I always ask is why don't they blow 2 trails or a loop so that terrain would open quicker. Now I have stopped an ask the question on several different times to snow makers and the guy at the compresser house. The answer has always been the limiting factor is compressed air. You need to increase the air pressure as the temp goes up to create snow.

When I say they need to make more snow I was not implying that they need to blow it deaper or increase the amount of hydrants on one trial. I was implying that they need to increase the air production so that they can blow more snow on multiple trails or at higher temperature. If you look at Sunday River today, not only are they top to botton on several trails with good conditions, they are going to expand to more terrain for the weekend. Hell all I want is to be top to bottom on one trail. Not really asking alot am I?

Treeskier
12-02-2011, 08:18 AM
I agree with you Hawk. Killington can blow ~200 guns at once. Sunday River I hear can now blow an upwards of 500 guns (now that they have also added low flow guns to their arsenal). We are lucky if we can blow ~ 50 guns at South (yes I now a second line at North but if it's not open its a mute subject that particular weekend). Stowe, Sugarloaf, Loon must be blowing more guns, multiple lines to have more open terrain. The ambiguity is also starting to effect our ski house bottom line. Members and guests are declining to come since the MT can not give a positive timely perdition of being open.

I hope the little snow predicted this afternoon blows up in our face and we get a substantial amount!

Out on to my deck to spur it on ```````:0

gostan
12-02-2011, 09:00 AM
Since the mountain cannot even let us know if it will open.......I am staying home and will be playing golf on Sunday.......instead of yelling out "coming right", I will be practicing on my "fore". We can all talk about snow guns, compressors, water, etc., but the fact that I can ply golf this first weekend in December, in my backyard west of Boston, says it all.

HowieT2
12-02-2011, 09:12 AM
I agree with you Hawk. Killington can blow ~200 guns at once. Sunday River I hear can now blow an upwards of 500 guns (now that they have also added low flow guns to their arsenal). We are lucky if we can blow ~ 50 guns at South (yes I now a second line at North but if it's not open its a mute subject that particular weekend). Stowe, Sugarloaf, Loon must be blowing more guns, multiple lines to have more open terrain. The ambiguity is also starting to effect our ski house bottom line. Members and guests are declining to come since the MT can not give a positive timely perdition of being open.

I hope the little snow predicted this afternoon blows up in our face and we get a substantial amount!

Out on to my deck to spur it on ```````:0

FWIW- i read a post from someone from stowe who said they had 90 guns going simultaneously yesterday.

HowieT2
12-02-2011, 09:14 AM
Since the mountain cannot even let us know if it will open.......I am staying home and will be playing golf on Sunday.......instead of yelling out "coming right", I will be practicing on my "fore". We can all talk about snow guns, compressors, water, etc., but the fact that I can ply golf this first weekend in December, in my backyard west of Boston, says it all.

same here. leaving the family home and I'm just going to drive up tomorrow to bring our gear and get set up.

Hawk
12-02-2011, 09:39 AM
We had a killer Mountain Bike ride last night at Harold Parker SF. 6 of us and one guy had an Ipod and speaker set up on his back. Very fun to have music and race around on twisty single track. The thing was it was not cold at all. I cannot remember anytime that I went riding in December and didn't freeze my arse off. I have to admit, it has been good riding this year. JA would have loved this. I am also going to stay home I think and finish up on my Reno and ride. Then it's full time every weekend for the rest of the season.

Hawk
12-02-2011, 09:43 AM
FWIW- i read a post from someone from stowe who said they had 90 guns going simultaneously yesterday.

SR is saying they had 350! How much air does that take. ;-)

Tin Woodsman
12-02-2011, 12:37 PM
We are all speculating to some degree because we are not in a position to know the facts other than the bits and pieces that are fed to us. one thing we do know is that in the past, they had rented diesel compressors to supplement what they had, and still have now, so as to increase the capacity of the system to make snow. with more air, they were able to make more snow. Therefore, we know that the amount of snow they can make at any given time is limited by the amount of air, not water. furthermore, we know that last summer they invested in new water pipes, so if anything, they should be able to pump more water now than in the past.
We also know for a fact, that GMP has, at times of peak demand, limited the amount of electricity the resort can use. while this can be a limiting factor in recovering from a thaw by blasting snow on a weekend in mid january, it shouldnt be an issue now.

as an aside, I dont see where all this "bashing" is on this board. all i see is respectful disagreement. and where's Tin with all this snow making talk. Tin? Tin? Bueller Bueller?

What's more to say? Hawk is nailing it. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

They can pump more water than air. IOW, when they are maxed out on pumping air, they still have the capacity to pump some material additional amount of water, but have nowhere to put it absent additional air. If you decrease air usage per gun, you should therefore be able to re-allocate that "extra" air budget to other guns which would have otherwise been idle. there's no problem feeding water to those extra guns b/c you already had extra capacity to do so when you started, and there's been no change in the amount of water going to the guns you were already blowing.

As Hawk points out well, the rubber hits the road in two ways:

1) How many trails/loops they can blow at one time during good/normal conditions

2) How much snow they can produce during marginal temps - again, marginal temps create an air issue for snowmaking, not a water issue

In this light, it's disappointing to see the mtn so far behind even middling, low elevation/latitude competitors despite the much-trumpeted improvements and investments.

Not bashing here, but who amongst us, all of whom love SB or we wouldn't be on this site, isn't disappointed with the current status quo? Would you rather be skiing or bitching about not being able to do so?

I'll take door #1, Bob.

vonski
12-02-2011, 01:05 PM
Keep Dancing Tree!!!! Just looked at webcam and its puking big globs out of the sky. Nothing like ma nature snow guns!!!!

HowieT2
12-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Keep Dancing Tree!!!! Just looked at webcam and its puking big globs out of the sky. Nothing like ma nature snow guns!!!!

That it is and it certainly makes it look a whole lot better. but the temps must be marginal as the the guns at the base are off.

gostan
12-05-2011, 10:05 AM
The following was posted on Sugarloaf Today on Saturday by the mountain communications director. SL has 3 trails open right now with no top to bottom. Bring on the cold weather.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________
We maxed out at about 110 guns last night and the night before on Hayburner and Candyside. When temps/wet bulbs get low enough, these days the snowmakers can generally max out the system somewhere in the 130-140 gun range, depending on the types of guns they’re running. When temperatures are higher and snowmaking requires more air, that number goes down a bit.

Sunday River has about twice the air capacity that we have, and consequently has a much larger snowmaking capacity than we do, particularly when temps are warm like they have been this week. It’s really apples and oranges. We certainly don't claim to have a comparable snowmaking capacity to Sunday River, so I’m not sure where the disconnect is.

And with all due respect to Vesper’s vast knowledge of all things snowmaking, in 2000 we could not have accomplished what our snowmakers did this week. With about a 48 hour window of marginal snowmaking temps (only about 36 hours for Peavey and below), they were able to take Hayburner and Candyside from what was essentially bare earth to skiable.

We have made huge improvements to the snowmaking system over the past several years, but no matter what improvements we make the key ingredient will always be cold temperatures, which have been in short supply this week.

- Ethan
Sugarloaf Communications Manager
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________Although I could have played golf yesterday, I opted to go see the Patriots game in Foxborough. Pretty warm for December football.

MntMan4Bush
12-05-2011, 10:59 AM
So how many guns can SB run at the same time at Lincoln? It's been asked but not answered. I heard from 2 people this weekend that it is only 25-30 at once. This seems a bit exaggerated to me and I don't really believe it. Though if I think about it I don't really remember seeing many more than this going at once in recent history, but I'm probably wrong on this.

Aside from this I will say the new guns seem pretty nice. They are really quiet as opposed to a deafening roar that I liked and the snow coming out looked a lot lighter and finer than what is blasted out of the older ones.

win
12-05-2011, 12:06 PM
This is not a simple answer. It all depend on the "wet bulb" temperatures. The colder and less humidity there is, the less CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air you need to converst water to snow. The maximum water we can run through the system is approximately 2,000 gallons per minute. The new guns can convert water to snow at marginal temperatures with only about 5CFM. Using less air is why they are so much quieter. This time of year when temperatures are marginal - meaning above 25 wet bulb, we run out of air before maximizing the water that is available. With the new guns we can run more guns at the same time and pump more water. So far using 20 of the new snowlogic guns at Lincoln Peak we have had nearly 70 guns running at the same time. Once we have finished covering Inverness for GMVS we plan to move those 20 over to LP and this will allow us to pump more water through the system. When temperatures are in the single digits, we have sometimes maximize the gallons pumped with only one of two of the three electric compressors being used. With all forty snowlogiv guns in place at LP and cold temperatures, we will be able to see where we max out with guns running simultaneously.

The old snowmaking guns needed 300-400 CFM. The newer low energy towers that we have purchased over the past few years may require only 100-125 cfm. Thus you can see why we are hopefull that these new snowlogic funs with prove out this year.

MntMan4Bush
12-06-2011, 08:52 AM
Thanks Win. I'm sure that Sunday River's claim of 350+ snow guns at once was during optimal conditions so it wouldn't be fair to compare to them in anything but. In fact I'm not even sure it's fair to compare to them at all given how much they have invested in it. I'll be curious to see how many we can get going now using the new guns in good conditions and I'll be even happier to see that limit pushed early and often.

HowieT2
12-06-2011, 10:31 AM
Thanks Win. 5 cfm is definitely something to get excited about. there should be some kind of energy tax credit for investing in this equipment.
One more question if you would be so kind, is 2000 gpm sufficient, such that with continuing investments to address the air issue, the capacity can be brought up to an acceptable level?

boze
12-06-2011, 10:56 AM
From Sunday River's web site...which BTW also notes a relatively paltry 167" annual snowfall which makes a case for their having invested in some serious snow-making firepower:

Snowmaking
Terrain Coverage: 525 acres
Water Capacity: 9,000 gallons per minute
Air Capacity: 60,000 cubic feet per minute @ 150 psi
Snowmaking Capacity: 4 acre feet per hour
Snowmaking Arsenal: 1,900 guns
Miles of pipe in system (approximate): 72
Miles of hose in system (approximate): 30

Hrdstrt
12-06-2011, 11:39 AM
Snow Logic does have a web site.

http://snowlogicusa.com/

Some neat stuff on there.

MntMan4Bush
12-06-2011, 01:20 PM
That is impressive. The 1900 guns though may not be a fair representation. They can't run all at once of course. What is nice though is that many are stationary or set up semi-permanent so that when they want to switch zones to blow on they don't have to go drag all the hoses up or down one trail and move them to another.

ducky
12-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Win, thanks for the detailed explanation. Let's hope for some cold weather and a great season to follow.

gostan
12-07-2011, 06:52 AM
NECN is calling for 3-5 +/- inches of wet snow tonight into tomorrow morning in Vermont & then turning colder. Those snow/cold dances are working - finally!

HowieT2
12-07-2011, 06:55 AM
NECN is calling for 3-5 +/- inches of wet snow tonight into tomorrow morning in Vermont & then turning colder. Those snow/cold dances are working - finally!

we are just north of the predicted heaviest accumulations. dance for some upslope as the storm pulls away.

gostan
12-07-2011, 07:16 AM
I know...just south of us is an expected up to 8 inches of snow at elevation. The 3-5 estimate comes from NWS. All in all, the important change is that temps are going to drop to allow some steady snowmaking.

boze
12-07-2011, 11:33 PM
Looking at the Okemo web cam at 1115p shows that a bit South of us is getting rain / mixed precip. With winter programs slated to start this weekend our Okemo family friends are having to hoof it to Killington during the days to get some 'snow time' for the race teams - kinda like ice time at the hockey rink. Feel bad for those folks while also happy our more Northern latitude is aiding our situation this time.

I just hope we're also able to take advantage of the chilly temp and run the snow guns tonight and tap the extra efficiency that Ma Nature is providing via these lower temps. Hopefully the winds aren't precluding that.

gostan
12-08-2011, 07:41 AM
SB website reports 1-4" from base to top. It should look more like winter this weekend on the slopes.

Hawk
12-08-2011, 08:04 AM
1 to 4 is dissapointing. oh well. I will be up tommorrow to ski.

HowieT2
12-08-2011, 08:53 AM
1 to 4 is dissapointing. oh well. I will be up tommorrow to ski.

Be thankful for what we got. looks like all the vt resorts are reporting 4-5". at least it looks a little like winter. maybe we get a little upslope tonight FTW.

gostan
12-08-2011, 09:17 AM
1 to 4 is dissapointing. oh well. I will be up tommorrow to ski.The updated mountain report now shows 3-4 inches. It will certainly look more winter like on the slopes this weekend.

Hawk
12-08-2011, 09:23 AM
I can be thankful and be disapointed as well. The way things are going we had better get used to this kind of thing this year. ;-)

gostan
12-08-2011, 10:22 AM
......any day outside on the ski slopes is a heck of a lot more interesting and rewarding than a day inside.................& I remain convinced that the slow early season we are dealing with means that March and April will bring us some monumental dumps.

Hawk
12-08-2011, 11:00 AM
I'm not that patient. I will be flying to snow. ;-)

gostan
12-08-2011, 11:20 AM
I'm not that patient. I will be flying to snow. ;-)Where & when? Looks like a smart move if you are doing so for end of this month. I was going to head west around first of the year myself, but will show some patience until first week of February.

Hawk
12-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Hopefully I am tagging onto a business trip with my wife out to Seatle before Christmas. Baker or Crystal are the places we have in mind. Also headed to Tahoe at the end of January for 10 days. Woo Hoo!!!!!!

ducky
12-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Wow! Mixed conditions and still downloading Bravo but a great day of skiing and riding at Sugarbush.

Hawk
12-08-2011, 03:14 PM
Looks like a nice sunny day Ducky. Hopefully more nice weather for me tomorrow. I also heard that there might be some upslope snow with the passage of a small front tomorrow night.

ducky
12-08-2011, 03:46 PM
Start with sharp edges and all will be well. See you out there - me in black jacket/grey pants. :)

MntMan4Bush
12-09-2011, 09:08 AM
I see that only 3 trails are listed as open. Were they not able to blow snow? Are guns going right now? Says summit temp is 18 degrees. Are guns going on Ripcord and Organgrinder to have it ready for the weekend? Where are these 50-70 guns I heard about

HowieT2
12-09-2011, 12:11 PM
I see that only 3 trails are listed as open. Were they not able to blow snow? Are guns going right now? Says summit temp is 18 degrees. Are guns going on Ripcord and Organgrinder to have it ready for the weekend? Where are these 50-70 guns I heard about

My guess is OG and ripcord open tomorrow. doubt we get top to bottom this weekend.

ReefBum
12-09-2011, 04:44 PM
They were blowing below Heavens Gate this afternoon. One of the lift guys said they hope to be top to bottom by Sunday. From what i saw they are going to need to blow a good amount to get OG and Ripcord open (OG had more snow)....the guns were not running there this afternoon. Nice conditions on Jester but Downspout was pretty skied off (firm/ice) by the time I hit it this afternoon.

win
12-09-2011, 05:03 PM
Let me add to what I wrote a couple of days ago to clarify a few things. First, remember that LP and Me are two separate systems so when you compare Sugarbush to other areas you have to look at the two combined. Thus, the 70 guns I mentioned that we had run at one point this year was only at LP, we can run near that number at ME under the same conditions. Also I should clarify the GPM capacity. At LP we actually MAX out at a total of 4,000 GPM. The 2,000 I mentioned would be if the 20 new guns were running at full efficiency. We would be runinng 2,000 gpm through them and still have another 2,000 gpm left to run through other guns. ME's capacity is approximately 2,500 gpm and possibly a bit more now that we have improved some of the efficiencies there. Because they are separate systems we can't put all the air and water on one trail like other mountains can. Today, we have three trails open at LP but we are also making snow on all of Rim Rum almost all the way down to The Glen House and on all of Inverness. When we open ME next week you might see a significant trail count expansion.

We did have to shut the guns down at LP today for several hours to do some valve repair. We did start up again and are using all of our air capacity on Lower Downspout and Gondolier due to the marginal temperatures lower on the mountain. We want to get top to bottom asap. This might be possible by the end of tomorrow. We'll see how the overnight temperatures do. They are higher than we had forecasted 24 hours ago. Getting top to bottom is more important now than getting OG or Ripcord as it looks like it will be warming up again Sunday into next week and we may only be able to make snow up high for several days. The forecast keeps changing so our snow plan is evolving daily.

itsallaboutpow
12-09-2011, 05:15 PM
Win,

There are always a lot of arm chair quarterbacks throwing out their opinion as if it was fact .. I can;t tell you how
nice it is that you are an active participant in this forum so that we can get the whole truth .. nothing but the truth ..

THANKS !!

HowieT2
12-09-2011, 10:06 PM
thanks win. interesting stuff.

at the end of the day, its all about mother nature and evidently she wants to delay things a bit. must be saving it up to hit us with a big one.

i for one am not unhappy to start out slowly. iirc, 12/06 was a disaster before the powderfest that was february through may '07

great ride up tonight. truly remarkable what has been accomplished with the roads.

arc1
12-10-2011, 07:38 AM
"in the past 24 hours we have made snow on 11 trails..."

gostan
12-10-2011, 07:50 AM
"in the past 24 hours we have made snow on 11 trails..." Stowe is only 50 minutes & a $88 lift tix away.

Hawk
12-10-2011, 08:08 AM
Sometimes the truth hurts. Saying ski somewhere else does not dimish the fact that we are way behind and others (our compeditors for dollars) are not. I love this place as much as any other. Pray that mother nature bails us out once again. I am going out to ski now. See you out there.

gostan
12-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Sometimes the truth hurts. Saying ski somewhere else does not dimish the fact that we are way behind and others (our compeditors for dollars) are not. I love this place as much as any other. Pray that mother nature bails us out once again. I am going out to ski now. See you out there.Considering the slow start to winter, today was pretty decent after the crowds dissipated. I had to dodge quite a few riders on Jester and the boilerplate after noon was nothing to write home about. & I would definitely not go spend $88 to ski anywhere else as I am committed to SB. My previous post was my attempt at some sarcasm as I do believe that it is time to stop worrying about what the other guy is doing. But it is available if one so chooses.

HowieT2
12-10-2011, 05:16 PM
nice day n the hill. skied till lunch thrn xalled it a day.

think we lucked out with temps today. stayed around 28 at the base. they were making snow down low all day.

ml242
12-11-2011, 02:01 AM
With the warmer temps moving in I hope that they can get ~12 hours of snowmaking a day on the gate house over the next week. Sure, being top to bottom would be great but without that quad going for intermediates nothing else really matters. Experts don't come to the Bush to ski man made snow anyway and it would also be an effective way to increase trail count and acreage. I dunno, I don't need to ski the luge track of Jester -> DS -> LJ so I can wait for OG / Ripcord / Birdland whenever they get going.

But maybe Santa will drop off a diesel air compressor in a couple weeks. Or Chanukah Harry could bring eight!

Hawk
12-11-2011, 06:17 PM
Well some of us are headed to K and others to SR next weekend. The first hand reports I heard are just to good. I will be back for Christmas week. Hopefully there will be more trails open by then. Skiing is fun no mater where you go. I just wish we could do more. :(

MntMan4Bush
12-12-2011, 09:22 AM
Wonder what I could be writing about............


Skied SB on Saturday. Heard the crowds were pretty heavy for only ONE trail so waited till later in the day to show up. Plus after a few weeks in a row skiing just ONE trail it gets kind of boring and tough to make a full day out of given the trail that it is. In a word, it was terrible. Thank god I have factory edges on from a new pair of skis that I couldn't wait to try out, early season of not. Boilerplate ice luge mobbed with people at every turn. The snow report said they have been blowing continuously since Wednesday? Where? Was he referring to another mountain? Does he know what the word continuously means? Then when the crowds finally cleared and it looked like you could get one run in without need for the Gronk to toss a block out in front of you they roped it off at 3:05. Hey I understand, but it added to my un-motivating day.

All discussions pointed towards a top to bottom opening on Sunday. That's nothing more than a marketing move to say it's open top to bottom. Anyone drive up and say "I can't wait to see how Gondalier is skiing today." How about some new terrain worth skiing? So the decision was to make for Kmart on Sunday. Further sealed by the fact that new terrain couldn't even be opened as thought on Sunday.

Now I understand we can't be toe to toe with Killington. Seeing the crowds they get I don't want to their equal. But couldn't we be 1/10th of them at least? 1/5th as good. Why is our snow making so horrible. You can't even do a trail count comparison because it wouldn't paint the proper picture of sheer acreage and terrain open on several peaks at Killington. Even their most skied terrain wasn't in as poor a shape as Jester/spout was on Saturday. Oh wait . Sorry Jester-Allyn-Spout. Don't want to leave that gem out. And their best trail open, in my opinion, was Skylark which was absolutely swimming in snow. And not just hard or wet man-made stuff, but nice powdery snow that was bumped up so when you skied a nice zipper line down you were getting face shots. FACESHOTS on man made. To whoever thinks that all man made snow is terrible to ski on you have not skied on well made snow. If your only experience is with Bush snowmaking then I will point you back to 3 years ago (maybe 4) when Spring Fling was opened early and they were just blanketing it with snow that made nice powder bumps all the way down. Now that was some good snowmaking at the Bush.

As a long time skier at the Bush and a season pass holder I prefer SB. There are many things mid season and once things get going that I love about the mountain and hence why I continue to buy a pass here and no where else. But some of the happenings, specifically this time of year, are just Bush League. As much as people may be tired or hearing people complain about the lack of snowmaking I'm tired of skiing ONE trail several weeks in a row, especially given that it's that ONE trail. And yes it is ONE trail. Not 3. I challenge anyone to even find Allyn Traverse on a trail map. Ever lay down a sick line on Allyn's before? 3 trails? That's egregious. Every other mountain does it too so when we market ourselves out to the public why not, but between us who know better let's be honest with each other here huh?

I've skied 7 days so far this year. My 2 best days have been at Killington. Yesterday and the Friday after Thanksgiving/ They didn't feel like early season skiing. There was enough etrrain open and good snow to make it feel regular season. Sorry. Not to mention they have a great early season deal. When people say they don't want to spend $88 at Stowe I agree, but Killington has a two for one voucher they email to anyone who signs up for their newsletter early season. One per email ID. With a yahoo account, a google account an work account and if needed several misspellings of your name in each new account created you could end up with a handful of two for one vouchers. Not a bad deal early season given the terrain they have open.

So again I say we can't be Killington or Sunday River. Don't want to be. I want to be us. Just a better version of us. Why are we so far behind? Why are we so bad? What is the plan to get us better? I saw the new guns. They're quiet for sure. Can they put out as much snow though? I saw a few and looked closely at them and to the untrained eye they sure weren't jacked up to 11. But what do I know. Maybe they toss out gobs of snow. What's the mountain's next step to try and get to better snowmaking capacity. Multiple trails at once. Not a 'We need to freshen up Jester then move the guns over to Ripcord." Why can't we do both at the same time?

Personally given our current capacity I would have liked to have seen them blasting on Organgrinder to get that open and at the same time Spring Fling and have the double opened up. That would at least spread the crowd some. With the Grand Reopening of the Wunderbar it might have been a nice option and more attractive for people to finish up their ski day there after a run on the Fling. Just a thought.

Hawk
12-12-2011, 09:48 AM
Wow, I see you haven't cooled down since I saw you at the Castlerock on Saturday afternoon. ;-) You two were way tooooo funny. It really is a dead horse dude. When several people come up to you that do not post on the board and say "hey can you cut them some slack", you know it is time to lay off. So that is what I am doing for now. I will be going to SR to ski this weekend with my old friends. I normally would not do this but I need a little variety. I will not come back and say that it was great. Hopefully by Christmas week we can enjoy more terrain. If it was me I would push the new guns aside and use the old ones. ;-)

HowieT2
12-12-2011, 11:46 AM
The natives are restless.

while I am also anxious for some expanded terrain, it's only early december and the weather hasnt been cooperative. it'll happen.

boze
12-12-2011, 02:24 PM
yes we're restless, and 'it'll happen'
it's just that 'it's happened' elsewhere already, by a magnitude or 2
while all mtns rely on Ma Nature to make things right, some mtns more needy than others
but those are the cards we've been dealt, and a meaningful capex infusion into snow-making coverage/quantity likely a ways off
so i'm going to take up early season yoga to work on my non-existent patience...

HowieT2
12-12-2011, 02:29 PM
yes we're restless, and 'it'll happen'
it's just that 'it's happened' elsewhere already, by a magnitude or 2
while all mtns rely on Ma Nature to make things right, some mtns more needy than others
but those are the cards we've been dealt, and a meaningful capex infusion into snow-making coverage/quantity likely a ways off
so i'm going to take up early season yoga to work on my non-existent patience...

you're always restless. cant see you doing yoga. maybe try humping a pine tree instead. BTW-email me about going out in nyc this week.

smb1789
12-13-2011, 12:02 AM
I agree with the angry post, yes the post seems a bit dramatic but really Sugarbush plain sucked this weekend and was far worse today. I was with intermediate skiers who really didn't get to go much as a result of the conditions and on the way back I heard a lot of complaints about why we just didn't spend the weekend in killington as from route 100 there is visibly a lot more snow on that mountain. It does look really sad that not only could they not open more trails but the conditions were not good either, downspout was according to some the worst they've ever seen it. Top to bottom when they finally opened it(gondolier) was like a sheet of ice, might as well sent the snowlogic guns back because a hose would be almost as effective and way cheaper. I know mother nature has not been kind but the resort has to do better, they should have gotten a little more open maybe organgrinder and ripcord and the conditions should be better. I am not asking for them to match killington in early season snow making, but at this stage 2-3 real trails and decent skiable conditions should be a reality.

ducky
12-13-2011, 08:27 AM
Late Sunday night, early Monday morning, there was a sudden temperature inversion from the teens to mid-30s - I live at 1740' and you could hear the snow thundering off my metal roof in the early hours. Until it was realized, the guns blew some very wet snow and there was icing.

smb1789
12-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Yeah gondolier was like a luge track! What I continue to not understand, not just throwing stones at sugarbush, is why in VT the mountains are not entering the 21st century given their dependence on snowmaking. In the Alps it is heavily computerized, I'll say this the eastern alps have had worse weather than VT but because of much better snowmaking technology were able to open a lot of terrain and they must be doing it efficiently because power costs there are VERY high compared to VT. Sensors let them know when they can make snow and they are able to shut it down and turn it on at the drop of a hat. Mind you from what I have seen it is only in limited places but itallows them to open a decent amount of terrain(10 trails or so) early so they are never caught without terrain. Sugarbush when they make investments in snowmaking really should look into automating the system and upgrading it so at early season when they get favorable conditions in a short window, they can take advantage of it.

Hawk
12-13-2011, 10:26 AM
I also heard that they are having problems with infrastruture. I guess they blew a main valve and that is hindering their ability to pump water. Hey it's just what I heard from a good source.

vonski
12-13-2011, 10:37 AM
websites indicating no snowmaking going on right now. Not even up top. Temps still under 28 up top but 31 at mid station. so I guess not worth it. Or the snowmakers need some sleep. Oh well, just hoping this turns into 2006/2007.

sglatham
12-13-2011, 10:49 AM
Ok, I guess I need to throw in my 2 cents......

First, as I noted in an earlier post this season after I looked at various private weather forecasts for the winter, I worried that Sugarbush's under-powered snowmaking systems would be exposed if the marginal weather materialized. Unfortunately this scenario has materialized in spades. I have been VERY surprised (shocked?) at the difference between Sugarbush and basically everyone else (ok, save MRG). I hesitate to keep this thread going as I think Win has done a fantastic job, I know Mike and crew are making the best and most snow they can, and I understand the real tradeoffs in investing tons of money in snowmaking while making the business (which is what it is) viable. Also, let’s not forget the HEROIC efforts, and cash, in getting the pond back in service after Irene! We'd be nowhere without that!

But looking forward, I wonder about the Phase 2 base build out? I agree that the build out of the base area thus far was a requirement, above even snowmaking improvements. What I wonder is whether, at this point, the next phase (possibly to start spring 2012) is more important that investing in snowmaking? Or is the cash flow from that build out needed for a possible snowmaking upgrade in 2013? Will a poor season, with lack luster snowmaking front and center, hurt Phase 2 sales? I’m sure Win is all other this, but I would like to hear his thoughts on Phase 2 and how/if it relates in any way to snowmaking upgrades, and what the longer range capital plans are regarding snowmaking.

In the meantime, there is no such thing as too many snow dances! THINK SNOW!!!

HowieT2
12-13-2011, 11:12 AM
websites indicating no snowmaking going on right now. Not even up top. Temps still under 28 up top but 31 at mid station. so I guess not worth it. Or the snowmakers need some sleep. Oh well, just hoping this turns into 2006/2007.

could also be the wet bulb temperature forced them to stop.

HowieT2
12-13-2011, 11:16 AM
Ok, I guess I need to throw in my 2 cents......

First, as I noted in an earlier post this season after I looked at various private weather forecasts for the winter, I worried that Sugarbush's under-powered snowmaking systems would be exposed if the marginal weather materialized. Unfortunately this scenario has materialized in spades. I have been VERY surprised (shocked?) at the difference between Sugarbush and basically everyone else (ok, save MRG). I hesitate to keep this thread going as I think Win has done a fantastic job, I know Mike and crew are making the best and most snow they can, and I understand the real tradeoffs in investing tons of money in snowmaking while making the business (which is what it is) viable. Also, let’s not forget the HEROIC efforts, and cash, in getting the pond back in service after Irene! We'd be nowhere without that!

But looking forward, I wonder about the Phase 2 base build out? I agree that the build out of the base area thus far was a requirement, above even snowmaking improvements. What I wonder is whether, at this point, the next phase (possibly to start spring 2012) is more important that investing in snowmaking? Or is the cash flow from that build out needed for a possible snowmaking upgrade in 2013? Will a poor season, with lack luster snowmaking front and center, hurt Phase 2 sales? I’m sure Win is all other this, but I would like to hear his thoughts on Phase 2 and how/if it relates in any way to snowmaking upgrades, and what the longer range capital plans are regarding snowmaking.

In the meantime, there is no such thing as too many snow dances! THINK SNOW!!!

my understanding is that they are not going to go ahead with phase 2 unless and until most of the units are presold.

madriver
12-13-2011, 12:57 PM
websites indicating no snowmaking going on right now. Not even up top. Temps still under 28 up top but 31 at mid station. so I guess not worth it. Or the snowmakers need some sleep. Oh well, just hoping this turns into 2006/2007.

They're still making snow, as they have been all day, on several trails on the upper half of ME so it seems they are making it where they can.

gostan
12-13-2011, 02:16 PM
my understanding is that they are not going to go ahead with phase 2 unless and until most of the units are presold.And any profits will not be utilized for snowmaking upgrades.

MntMan4Bush
12-13-2011, 02:40 PM
Win had indicated that the snow making capabilities on ME vs LP are two different setups. So I assumed that air used and production on Mt Ellen (Which I like seeing) does not effect production at LP. If this is the case then one might wonder why they can make snow at ME and not at LP. Or maybe not a question of if they can, but why they aren't.

Hawk
12-14-2011, 08:54 AM
Win had indicated that the snow making capabilities on ME vs LP are two different setups. So I assumed that air used and production on Mt Ellen (Which I like seeing) does not effect production at LP. If this is the case then one might wonder why they can make snow at ME and not at LP. Or maybe not a question of if they can, but why they aren't.

You are correct sir. They are 2 separate systems and have no connection whatsoever.