Snowmaking/Grooming test

[slatham]

Well, you just knew, after 6+ weeks of cold and snow with barely a warm breeze, that the weather would change right before Presidents week. So harking back to the early season snowmaking threads, this is a test of Sugarbush's snowmaking/grooming recovery capabilities, as well as commitment. It will be interesting for me personally to see as I have spent that last few Presidents weeks at Mt Snow (peer/family pressure), which while lacking in terrain, does NOT lack in thaw/freeze rebound capability.

Now hopefully Mother Nature apologizes by way of post-frontal upslope snow tonight/tomorrow, drives the Monday low far enough north for large amounts of precipitation, while south enough to be snow, and the late week storm likewise stays south enough for snow. But regardless, without a massive dump the mountain will need significant help from the Sugarsbush snowmaking/grooming team. I have to think they're rested! Are they up to it? Of course. Will they be sprung free to go crazy?

Regardless, being in the MRV and at the 'Bush will put a smile on my face :D

THINK SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[summitchallenger]

To be honest this is the second thaw and we have plenty of cover so I doubt that snowmaking will be needed. The terrain that will be impacted, of course, will be the natural snow terrain that may be frozen solid. They will groom what they can I imagine. FWIW we came out of the first thaw (on Monday) unscathed and the snowpack was so dry that it soaked up what little moisture there was and there was no crust to speak of. It is not as if it is 60 degrees and sunny and all the snow is gone.

[Hawk]

To be honest this is the second thaw and we have plenty of cover so I doubt that snowmaking will be needed. The terrain that will be impacted, of course, will be the natural snow terrain that may be frozen solid. They will groom what they can I imagine. FWIW we came out of the first thaw (on Monday) unscathed and the snowpack was so dry that it soaked up what little moisture there was and there was no crust to speak of. It is not as if it is 60 degrees and sunny and all the snow is gone.

Summit, you know that snowmaking is not just for patching the holes in the cover right. At places that really know how to blow it, it can change a hard bomb proof day into smooth velvetine slopes. But most people at the Bush have know idea of this concept. They think that snowmaking = wet slop that turns into ice and on some occasions this is the truth.

I would wager that if they blow at all on Saturday and Sunday it will be minimal at best and have very little impact.

Go ahead....prove me wrong. :wink:

[Tin Woodsman]

To be honest this is the second thaw and we have plenty of cover so I doubt that snowmaking will be needed. The terrain that will be impacted, of course, will be the natural snow terrain that may be frozen solid. They will groom what they can I imagine. FWIW we came out of the first thaw (on Monday) unscathed and the snowpack was so dry that it soaked up what little moisture there was and there was no crust to speak of. It is not as if it is 60 degrees and sunny and all the snow is gone.

Summit, you know that snowmaking is not just for patching the holes in the cover right. At places that really know how to blow it, it can change a hard bomb proof day into smooth velvetine slopes. But most people at the Bush have know idea of this concept. They think that snowmaking = wet slop that turns into ice and on some occasions this is the truth.

I would wager that if they blow at all on Saturday and Sunday it will be minimal at best and have very little impact.

Go ahead....prove me wrong. :wink:

As a practical matter, I wouldn't be surprised if the snowmaking team is working witha skeleton crew at this time of year. Most of their work is done, as the job at SB seems more focused on building base depths rather than resurfacing after thaw/freeze cycles mid/late season.

[summitchallenger]

Summit, you know that snowmaking is not just for patching the holes in the cover right. At places that really know how to blow it, it can change a hard bomb proof day into smooth velvetine slopes. But most people at the Bush have know idea of this concept. They think that snowmaking = wet slop that turns into ice and on some occasions this is the truth.

I would wager that if they blow at all on Saturday and Sunday it will be minimal at best and have very little impact.

Go ahead....prove me wrong. :wink:

I am aware of what other places do for snowmaking and that many places have a different philosophy. As Tin said, SB practices the basebuilding approach and not the other approach.

And here is what the mountain is saying:


Snow and wind should also be present through much of Saturday. Anticipate some delayed lift and/or trail openings tomorrow, as we begin grooming a little later than normal...waiting for snow surfaces to become firm for the best results. Please note: the Gate House Express (rather than the Super Bravo) will be our 8:00 opening Lincoln Peak lift. And, though guided Slide Brook snowshoe tours will be offered tomorrow, ski & ride tours will not.

Rest assured there's plenty of coverage on our slopes, as we've already surpassed last year's snow totals for the entire season, in addition to all the snowmaking packed down before Mother Nature took over! We're prepared to do everything possible to present the best snow experience during any short-term challenge from the approaching freezing temperatures and gusty winds. We'll groom as soon as, and as often as we can, to soften firm surfaces. We'll prepare to add snowmaking to any areas if and when needed. And, we'll keep everyone's safety our priority if anticipated early weekend winds should require lift 'holds'. Once through a cycle or two of grooming, and with any new natural snow we're hoping to see accumulate, we may be right back to the awesome skiing and riding we've been spoiled with the past 6 weeks.

And I agreee with Tin that there will be little snowmaking if any because most of the staff are laid off which is the norm at most resorts this time of year.

[win]

We actually have a plan to make snow if it is needed and have the staff. Many are working in lift ops and thus are around. However, judging by what I see today, it may not be necessary to turn on the guns. The snow is holding up very well and our groomers are going to be aggressively tilling the snow once it sets up today. The breeze and the number of skiers and riders out today are helping prepare the snow for the groomers. The thin spots are where the sun hit yesterday on Castlerock. We also have some snow in the forecast late tonight and tomorrow and even a few inches would make everything pretty nice. The big issue tomorrow will be the wind which is forecasted to be 50 mph plus at the summit and from the NW. We'll see.

[Hawk]

I understand that it is the mountains philosophy that snow making is not entirely neccisary. I also understand that it may be cost prohibitive in view of the current capital expenitures. But what you don't see and may not understand is the amount of people that came this weekend and said why aren't they making snow? Rode the chair this weekend with many that said that very thing. These are people that will remember and maybe choose somewhere else next time.

The grand majority of skiers are the 5 to 10 days a year type and are mostly intermediate crusiers. These people spend all kinds of money to ski the nicely manicured slopes. They are the bulk of the paying customers and represent the growth of the mountian. I am sure that anybody in this busness understands the value of capturing this group for return visits.

The only reason why I keep bringing this up is that I used to hang with many of the mountian ops and marketing people at Sunday River. They would always put top priority to recoverys and getting the best snow product to the skier in a very short time. The VP of Marketing at the time once told me that 60% of thier return visits were atributed to snow quality. That speaks volumes to me and if you look at the numbers of skiers and the growth they have had it makes total sence. I just think that if Sugarbush wants to grow and make those numbers they always wish for, it will take more than nice buildings and good people in the service areas. It will take a better overall product when the weather is not cooperating. We have been lucky for the last bunch of years. What will happen when we have a truely bad weather year?

Just food for thought guys. That is all.

[summitchallenger]

I understand that it is the mountains philosophy that snow making is not entirely neccisary. I also understand that it may be cost prohibitive in view of the current capital expenitures. But what you don't see and may not understand is the amount of people that came this weekend and said why aren't they making snow? Rode the chair this weekend with many that said that very thing. These are people that will remember and maybe choose somewhere else next time.



That is not the point. SB and other resorts such as Stowe use snowmaking for basebuilding and to recover from major thaws. There is good base. The MO for this recovery is grooming. Stowe is not blowing snow. Okemo is not blowing snow.

[slatham]

Both Hawk and Summit make good points, but I think the bottom line is with Summit (and Win) - my internet-based review the other day found only Mt Snow (and Hunter) making snow, and in both case it was on a few, very high traffic areas and for a short period of time. Stowe, Killinginton, Stratton, Bromley and Okemo showed no indication they were making snow (to be complete, neither was MRG :wink: )

So the competition wasn't making snow. Does the average, 5-10 days a year intermediate that Hawk mentions know this, or does he just bail on coming back to the "Bush? And if he does know that nobody made snow, does he just bail for the Rockies? Either way its not great. But I have to assume the economics of blasting snow under these circumstances doesn't make sense, otherwise Win and his competitors would be blasting.

Coming up late week so I hope the groomers have done their thing, and mother nature continues to help out (and big dump would be nice :D )

THINK SNOW!!!

[summitchallenger]

I think that if SB had half as much snow as they do they would make snow this week. But the fact is that the base depths are not the issue--it is the surface condition on each trail. SB is opting to groom to resurface which makes sense considering that their snowmaking infrastructure and program is more for base building. Sunday River has snowguns and hoses for each hydrant and each trail is set up for snowmaking. As a result they can resurface very quickly. They have to because they don't get as much natural as SB. Sugarbush, on the other hand, has to strip and move hoses and guns around for a majority of their trails. The end result is that folks would still complain because (a) they'd have to ski through snowmaking and (b) the amount of time it would take to move from trail to trail.

[Hawk]

But that is the point. If they had the capibility and the equipment and used it, then people would notice the improved conditions. They would say "Wow, the conditions were great even thou they had a thaw" instead of "Wow what an ice skating rink it was this weekend". This will bring people back. Grooming is not the anwser. I will never soften the hard base that exists. It takes snow with a higher % of air to soften the slopes. My friends tell me that SR has resurfaced more than 20 trials already and the skiing is great. Wouldn't you want that right now?

I just know the difference and what it means to people...and I'm not talking about you people that like me ski every weekend in the woods. I think it would make this place into a world class resort. Hell when I get my millions I'm thinking of investing in the mountian snowmaking system. ;-)

[Jacksun]

Just came in from a really fun morning at ME. Lots of fresh, sometimes deep, even bump runs were quite skiable for a while, last night's manna filled in a lot of troughs and made it very enjoyable. I skied more in 3+ hrs today then all of Sat and Sun combined.

But, I'm off point. One thing to consider about any sort of snowmaking over the past few days and nights is that it was very windy, and I suspect most of what would have got blown would have ended up in the trees. Not sure it would have been possible to "fix" Downspout or Snowball, no matter how well intended. I think even some of the freshly ground up stuff from the groomers got blown off fairly quickly.

[muddy_hollow]

Just got back from LP and I thought conditions were pretty good. That little bit of extra snow made allot of different as compared to yesterday, which was a bit more slick.

Birch and Sunrise were really nice today and the added Sun helped a great deal. We even ducked into Slidebrook and got freshies throughout. A little stiff in places but the five of us had a nice run through there.

IMO, snow making today would have been a waste and frankly been more of a nuisance if we had to ski through guns. It was COOOOOLLLLDDD on the lifts today and snow guns would have made it that much worse. I'm glad I have a big hood to hunker down under.

Snow dancing now, winter isn't over yet.

[win]

We are going to test some new snowmaking equipment starting at noon tomorrow and since we will have the compressor on we will make some snow on Upper Snowball and Spring Fling for the rest of the afternoon and then groom it in. I think that Turns early Wednesday morning will be sweet. Keep your fingers crossed for some snow on Friday. In the meantime our groomers are working the blades hard and with the winds diminishing, I think everyone will see improvements day by day. Today, the North Lynx and Gate House pods were the softest and early on Upper Organgirnder was really nice.

[HowieT2]

The conditions were actually pretty decent today lp. Ducked into some woods which were definitely doable. The base in there is hard but not slick. Middle earth had enough new snow in the troughs to make it good. I've definitely seen it in worse shape

[Brew Ski]

I skied all day Monday and every single run was fresh untracked powder.
Grotto, xmas tree, nottingham, dominatrix, domino woods, pumphouse, "somewhere off ripcord", somewhere off OG, Orchard, 2 summer mountain bike trails and 3x SoBe.
The snow making Ullr gave us was 3-8 inches in most spots. Quiet skiing. Sun. Not a sinlge person around me other than a hot lady Bush Pilot and the original Bush Pilot himself. Glorious day.

If you didn't ski fresh, you just don't know how to ski Sugarbush. Take a guide with JA or Egan and learn how to read the mountain. You'll stop whining about snowmaking.
Actually, just sit and complain some more about snowmaking in the middle of winter. You can sit in the lodge or at home and complain about ice. I prefer the solitude and untracked powder with a couple friends and great skiers.
More for me.

p.s. Thanks to the "guy" who left the fabulous clean lines under the direct afternoon sun in SoBe. Wow are they nice!

[Treeskier]

Yah I/we found lots of fresh but my take was more like 3-4" total over the weekend. Now to my snow dancing for Friday's storm!

[Hardbooter]

Did we lose much base in the woods?

[summitchallenger]

From what little I saw on Sunday and Monday, I'd say no.

[Brew Ski]

When crossing under the lift en route to slidebrook, it looks like there is more exposed rocks and small trees suggesting some base loss in open areas. I think the trees have held onto the snow that was blown around. The warm up followed by the cold weather really locked the base in. I didn't feel much below my skis other than snow and some occasional air!

I'd like to think the woods base is set for a while. Certainly anything we get in the next few weeks will make the tree skiing fabulous.

[ahm]

So funny, a couple inches becomes a powder day and 6" is epic or sick. What's next rapping off the church becomes a ski mountaineering route. Keep it up, great reading :D Basically, some snow blew in and it freshened things up.....................some after a warm up and freezer. But in reality powder days should be deep with poles never hitting hard surfaces below and your boots never in sight. Net=the icecoast needs a foot plus dump.........and that is what March is for! Bring on the Patty's day storms of 2007!

[vonski]

I agree with that if you know where to ski you will find what you are looking for. Spent Sunday out of the wind in the sunshine in the woods and I was breaking a sweat at times. Doing my Friday snow dance as well.

[Yard Sale]

Did we lose much base in the woods?

i'd say that we lost close to a foot down low and lost less up top, but what remains is pretty dense and sturdy.

[HowieT2]

Did we lose much base in the woods?

i'd say that we lost close to a foot down low and lost less up top, but what remains is pretty dense and sturdy.

agreed. the usual spots are spotty but for the most part its all good.

[vonski]

Did we lose much base in the woods?

i'd say that we lost close to a foot down low and lost less up top, but what remains is pretty dense and sturdy.

It is dense! Those little tips from the pine trees sticking up do not move anymore! I would say we are back to same depth as end of January except now it is dense but edgeable.