Snowmaking?

[MntMan4Bush]

Before I go on about number of trails open, etc. my friend suggested I ask this question:

Does Sugarbush have the capability to make more snow then they currently are? For example can snow be made on:

A) Upper mountain single line only. Like it was on Saturday; Upper Jester to Downspout.

B) Upper mountain multiple lines? Like Upper Jester full blast AND Organgrinder full blast? I saw both trails getting hit Sunday, but it looked like Organgrinder and Jester were not going all out on each. Is this due to an inability to do so or a decision based on other factors?

C) Upper and Lower mountain at the same time but single area? For instance Organgrinder and Spring Fling?

D) Anywhere they damn well please all over the mountain. Such as Organgrinder, Springfling, Waterfall and a fan gun blasting the base like Charlie Sheen attacking a spilled bag of flour?

To generalize can snow only be made in one area at a time? If the answer is yes then I guess there's no point in asking why more snow wasn't being made.

But if the mountain has the ability then why are we failing here? To say 3 trails open is not accurate. There was one trail open and barely so as it wasn't top to bottom. I went Friday, stuck around Saturday hoping for Organgrinder to open up even as I got blasted in the face by guns and wind on the only trail open funneling people down it and came back Sunday only to be disappointed again. My friend went to Killington (Don't mean to frighten anyone with that name) to find 23 trails listed as open which translated to 15-16 separate trails of actual skiing (linking connectors and BS trail listings) with a few top to bottom. Now I recognize SB doesn't have the coinage that they have so we don't have to beat them at the early season game, but how about not going down in the 1st round. How about being a contender?

I was glad to get out and make a few turns but I was disappointed in the inability to get terrain open at this point in the season even though it's early. If all the other mountains were in the same boat and suffering from weather patterns then I couldn't complain. Since that's not the case here I am. Having everyone on only one trail and reducing visibility by coating my goggles with ice at every turn as opposed to working on Organgrinder or another trail during the day didn't help my enjoyability either. (Can you believe "enjoyability" doesn't set off the spell check? who would have thought that was a real word?)

[chuck]

patience grasshopper...

[Last Tracks]

Organgrinder opened this morning. The top 2/3rds was skiing very nicely. I took 5 laps on it and went home at 11.

[arc1]

Look at it this way, we have very nice buildings to hang out in until it snows.

This is an age old topic here, and one of great frustration to many who consider how feeble the Bush's snowmaking capacity and quality is. Last weekend was a good example as the guns were essentially spraying water. I could do a better job with my thumb over a garden hose.

I get around to quite a few resorts over the span of a season, and now I can only assume that our water has properties different from any other water supply in the country. Properties that are unique to the MRV. Properties so mysterious that consistent man made snow quality is not possible with currently known technology. Properties so dangerous that water pipes explode randomly. Properties so elusive that huge amounts of yellow ice routinely encrust trees and lift towers. Properties so unpredictable that it is just too risky to make snow on more than one trail at any time.

After years of conjecture, that's the theory I've settled on. Or maybe it's a budget/proiority thing, but I'm pretty sure it's all in the water.

[Tin Woodsman]

Before I go on about number of trails open, etc. my friend suggested I ask this question:

Does Sugarbush have the capability to make more snow then they currently are? For example can snow be made on:

A) Upper mountain single line only. Like it was on Saturday; Upper Jester to Downspout.

B) Upper mountain multiple lines? Like Upper Jester full blast AND Organgrinder full blast? I saw both trails getting hit Sunday, but it looked like Organgrinder and Jester were not going all out on each. Is this due to an inability to do so or a decision based on other factors?

C) Upper and Lower mountain at the same time but single area? For instance Organgrinder and Spring Fling?

D) Anywhere they damn well please all over the mountain. Such as Organgrinder, Springfling, Waterfall and a fan gun blasting the base like Charlie Sheen attacking a spilled bag of flour?

To generalize can snow only be made in one area at a time? If the answer is yes then I guess there's no point in asking why more snow wasn't being made.

But if the mountain has the ability then why are we failing here? To say 3 trails open is not accurate. There was one trail open and barely so as it wasn't top to bottom. I went Friday, stuck around Saturday hoping for Organgrinder to open up even as I got blasted in the face by guns and wind on the only trail open funneling people down it and came back Sunday only to be disappointed again. My friend went to Killington (Don't mean to frighten anyone with that name) to find 23 trails listed as open which translated to 15-16 separate trails of actual skiing (linking connectors and BS trail listings) with a few top to bottom. Now I recognize SB doesn't have the coinage that they have so we don't have to beat them at the early season game, but how about not going down in the 1st round. How about being a contender?

I was glad to get out and make a few turns but I was disappointed in the inability to get terrain open at this point in the season even though it's early. If all the other mountains were in the same boat and suffering from weather patterns then I couldn't complain. Since that's not the case here I am. Having everyone on only one trail and reducing visibility by coating my goggles with ice at every turn as opposed to working on Organgrinder or another trail during the day didn't help my enjoyability either. (Can you believe "enjoyability" doesn't set off the spell check? who would have thought that was a real word?)

This really gets to the heart of what the whole snowmaking discussion has focused on over the years. It's not about trying to open early and stay open later, though those are laudable goals if they can be financially justified. Rather, it's about increasing trail count with good depth as quickly as possible so as to make for a more attractive product in the early season and after thaws. SB will never have the firepower of K-Mart, nor do they need to, but even Stowe has two separate ways down the mountain open, consisting of 4.5 miles of trails all the way down to the 1600' elevation. The only major mtn in VT with which SB's open terrain currently compares favorably is Jay Peak, and it's not saying much when you are vying to stay out of last place.

Anyway, I'm not sure there's anything new here. This is the same old issue. Despite some improvements on the margin on specific trails and in terms of quality, they just don't have the firepower to expand trail counts and base depths as compared to nearly all of their major competitors. That's not going to change until and unless they can invest major coin in debottlenecking what's there, as well as in improving/expanding the on-hill delivery of what they pump. Hard to blame Win for prioritizing the LP base improvements, GMX and C-Rock replacements first in line. That said, it will be interesting to see what decisions are made on the snowmaking front in the next few years now that the real festering wounds in the overall SB offering have been fixed.

[Hawk]

The simple anwser is that they do not have the capacity to blow on more than one route at a time. I believe if they have temps they can blow one route top to bottom. And with the new main and pump house in place at Lincoln, it isn't water pressure that is the problem. It's the amount of compressed air.

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.

[Tin Woodsman]

The simple anwser is that they do not have the capacity to blow on more than one route at a time. I believe if they have temps they can blow one route top to bottom. And with the new main and pump house in place at Lincoln, it isn't water pressure that is the problem. It's the amount of compressed air.

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.

We're at Grand Targhee?

[boze]

More likely Heaven
As in high up there
As in Alta

[Plowboy]

The simple anwser is that they do not have the capacity to blow on more than one route at a time. I believe if they have temps they can blow one route top to bottom. And with the new main and pump house in place at Lincoln, it isn't water pressure that is the problem. It's the amount of compressed air.

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.

We're at Grand Targhee?

Cat skiing :lol:



My son went sat. with his cousin's. Their words "IT SUCKED".

[klop]

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.[/quote]

Tahoe has received ten FEET already. Sigh ...

[Hawk]

The simple anwser is that they do not have the capacity to blow on more than one route at a time. I believe if they have temps they can blow one route top to bottom. And with the new main and pump house in place at Lincoln, it isn't water pressure that is the problem. It's the amount of compressed air.

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.

We're at Grand Targhee?

Yes I borrowed the tag line but it still holds true. We certainly do not ski here for the snowmaking. When it does fall from the sky, and it does at greater frequency than most other places, this is certainly one of the best resorts in the east.

[MntMan4Bush]

Does that one route, top to bottom or not, mean one route at all of South? Or one route in a pod? So they can't blow something on HG pod and Spring Fling at the same time? Or does it more split on an axis such as they could blow on HG pod and something at Gatehouse. I seem to remember days (though far too infrequently) with more than one set of guns going at a time. I guess I'm trying to figure out their real capacity. I mean I saw all the talk about fixed pipes and continued commitment to snowmaking so we have the marketing aspect down. I was just hoping we'd have the actual operation down as well.

[skierdon]

I'm anxious as well, but frankly I'd rather minimal snowmaking. It's noisy and creates crappy snow. I can ski on man-made snow in Virginia.

I have a good feeling about the 2nd half of December.

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm anxious as well, but frankly I'd rather minimal snowmaking. It's noisy and creates crappy snow. I can ski on man-made snow in Virginia.

I have a good feeling about the 2nd half of December.

This has got to be my buddy Derek under a fake user name busting my chops right? It's already November 30th but you have your sights set on the 2nd half of December/ What about next week or the week after? Why not wait for a good March? Too noisy? There is no way this isn't you man. Good one. I appreciate you stacking wood the last weekend, but I'm not falling for this. I'm NOT!!!

[HowieT2]

The simple anwser is that they do not have the capacity to blow on more than one route at a time. I believe if they have temps they can blow one route top to bottom. And with the new main and pump house in place at Lincoln, it isn't water pressure that is the problem. It's the amount of compressed air.

Sorry dude, the mountian you chose to ski is a place of power from heaven not hoses.

Limited capacity is the only reasonable explanation.
Wish it would snow already.

[skierdon]

I'm anxious as well, but frankly I'd rather minimal snowmaking. It's noisy and creates crappy snow. I can ski on man-made snow in Virginia.

I have a good feeling about the 2nd half of December.

This has got to be my buddy Derek under a fake user name busting my chops right? It's already November 30th but you have your sights set on the 2nd half of December/ What about next week or the week after? Why not wait for a good March? Too noisy? There is no way this isn't you man. Good one. I appreciate you stacking wood the last weekend, but I'm not falling for this. I'm NOT!!!

Well from your name and photo I assume you are the outdoorsy type, no? There is a lot else to do other than complaining online that there is only one icy groomer instead of 3-4 icy groomers (OMG, how epic would that be!) You can go mountain biking, snowshoe the LT, or set up your gnarly tent and camp somewhere. Even better- you could help your buddy Derek stack wood instead of letting him do all of it.

I assume you are a season pass holder and are therefore upset that you are loosing value- but you knew what the snowmaking capacity was when you purchased your pass - and if you thought it was magically going to quadruple from one year to the next then that's unfortunate.

Ski season doesn't really get started until mother nature dumps a few feet on the mountain and places like Castlerock and the woods are skiable- until then we are just passing the time. Some prefer going to Killington and skiing the white ribbon's of death with the Soprano's and NY elite, others find alternative outdoor activities, and some people on this board like to beat a dead horse and discuss air compression percentages and the efficiency of fan guns vs. tower guns at 21 degrees Fahrenheit (so many experts here!). Free country I guess.

Sure the Bush could add a lot more snowmaking. They could also put in a Ritz Carlton at the base, put advertisements on the slopes, install a gondola from one end of the parking lot to the other, have the most expensive lift tickets in the east AND teeter on the brink of bankruptcy in the process. Thankfully this is not the Bush and hopefully never will be.

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm certain you're Derek now and next year your completely on your own for wood.

To each their own I guess, but man made snow, when made properly isn't that bad. In fact it can be quite nice, bump up well and give you a good work out for the day. Not all man made is icy deathcrust. I know at least a few people who will attest to the quality of the snow further south at the Ritz. As I mentioned, I don't expect the Bush to go toe to toe with them, nor should they given the size of the Bush. We don't likely take in the revenue to have 23 trails open like they do, but we do have paying customers and it takes money to make money so how about 6 trails. 6. That's a nice number. It's not 23 like big bad Ktown, but it's not Waleback either. I don't care if 2 of those are upper and lower Panorama. Let's just get some snow down.

Now if I wasn't tethered to a computer right now for work, I'd gladly be out doing something else "outdoorsy". I assume you don't have a laptop strapped to your handlebars as you rocket down a grassy slope. Since I'm here though I figured I'd once again voice a concern and lodge a complaint. As a customer I get that privilege. So rather than post nice happy things, like "Great Opening Day" and keep the illusion alive that all is well I figured I'd keep things in perspective to any and all who might read this that care about what their customers are really thinking. I'll save my "I had a great day" with a huge smile on my face for the greeters and blue coats on the mountain. (By the way I really enjoy having them on the slopes and getting my warm cider. That is a nice touch that they don't have at Killington)

Here's to a great mid February. Fingers crossed.

[Hawk]

I'm anxious as well, but frankly I'd rather minimal snowmaking. It's noisy and creates crappy snow. I can ski on man-made snow in Virginia.

I have a good feeling about the 2nd half of December.

This has got to be my buddy Derek under a fake user name busting my chops right? It's already November 30th but you have your sights set on the 2nd half of December/ What about next week or the week after? Why not wait for a good March? Too noisy? There is no way this isn't you man. Good one. I appreciate you stacking wood the last weekend, but I'm not falling for this. I'm NOT!!!

Well from your name and photo I assume you are the outdoorsy type, no? There is a lot else to do other than complaining online that there is only one icy groomer instead of 3-4 icy groomers (OMG, how epic would that be!) You can go mountain biking, snowshoe the LT, or set up your gnarly tent and camp somewhere. Even better- you could help your buddy Derek stack wood instead of letting him do all of it.

I assume you are a season pass holder and are therefore upset that you are loosing value- but you knew what the snowmaking capacity was when you purchased your pass - and if you thought it was magically going to quadruple from one year to the next then that's unfortunate.

Ski season doesn't really get started until mother nature dumps a few feet on the mountain and places like Castlerock and the woods are skiable- until then we are just passing the time. Some prefer going to Killington and skiing the white ribbon's of death with the Soprano's and NY elite, others find alternative outdoor activities, and some people on this board like to beat a dead horse and discuss air compression percentages and the efficiency of fan guns vs. tower guns at 21 degrees Fahrenheit (so many experts here!). Free country I guess.

Sure the Bush could add a lot more snowmaking. They could also put in a Ritz Carlton at the base, put advertisements on the slopes, install a gondola from one end of the parking lot to the other, have the most expensive lift tickets in the east AND teeter on the brink of bankruptcy in the process. Thankfully this is not the Bush and hopefully never will be.
Don, the man is frustrated with sking one trail. If you like variety then I guess it is valid. BUT what you said above is not accurate. If they upgraded compressors and capacity and fixed the leaks, we would not be sking 3 or 4 icy groomers. It would be top to bottom with several runs of smooth and creamy velveteen. Just look at Sunday River this weekend with 18 trails and 4 lifts. Their top elevation that they made snow on is only several hundred feet higher than the base of Sugarbush. The conditions were stellar as I heard from my old posse. :roll: But also you forget what Sugarbush is like after a rain and freeze event. It's the recovery that will be most needed soon. With global warming this la nina pattern will become more the norm and we will have to deal with thaw freeze all the time. Would be nice to have options. Don't get me wrong I will be there and ski it anyway.

[random_ski_guy]

the 10 day model (which let us down about 10 days ago) has over the past few days indicates a possible coastal storm around December 8th. Also the model seems to indicate that the pattern of storms moving up the ohio valley into canada maybe over (putting us on the warm side of the storm).
http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_1000_loop.html


btw, much of europe and the mtn west of the us have also turned white...always helpful for generating more cold air for all of us.
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/

[Tin Woodsman]

Ski season doesn't really get started until mother nature dumps a few feet on the mountain and places like Castlerock and the woods are skiable- until then we are just passing the time. Some prefer going to Killington and skiing the white ribbon's of death with the Soprano's and NY elite, others find alternative outdoor activities, and some people on this board like to beat a dead horse and discuss air compression percentages and the efficiency of fan guns vs. tower guns at 21 degrees Fahrenheit (so many experts here!). Free country I guess.

Sure the Bush could add a lot more snowmaking. They could also put in a Ritz Carlton at the base, put advertisements on the slopes, install a gondola from one end of the parking lot to the other, have the most expensive lift tickets in the east AND teeter on the brink of bankruptcy in the process. Thankfully this is not the Bush and hopefully never will be.
Again with the ridiculous strawman that the much needed investment in snowmaking is tantamount to turning Sugarbush into Vegas North. Why are the only options the status quo and a complete clusterf*ck featuring a Ritz Carlton at the base and a gondola in the parking lot? You could have used the same, illogical line of argument in attempting to dismiss the need for Claybrook and the three new lodges, couldn't you? Or would you prefer the mountain to have no warm beds at the base to generate revenue and the ski school to be based out of a tent b/c that's "old school" and "the Sugarbush way"? Why would an investment in snowmaking be any different? Isn't it all about improving the guest experience? If operated by competent professionals, the product can be quite good. Moreover, with the generally lower skier densities found at SB vs. K-Mart and areas to the south, you don't get the icy sheet of death effect unless you're limited to Deathspout. If they could open an alternate route from Bravo down (e.g. Birdland>HG Traverse or Domino Chute>OG>HG Traverse), that would spread the traffic out and help to prevent all man-made getting scraped to the side of the trail.

The bottom line is that SB cannot, should not and will not ever have a system akin to what exists at K-Mart. Not only would that take way to much investment than can be justified, it's clearly not needed with SB nor is it consistent with what SB is all about in reality or in how it markets itself. That said, I don't think people realize just how large the gap is just to get to league average, let alone to be amongst the elite (e.g. K-Mart, Sunday River, Okemo, etc..).

[HowieT2]

the 10 day model (which let us down about 10 days ago) has over the past few days indicates a possible coastal storm around December 8th. Also the model seems to indicate that the pattern of storms moving up the ohio valley into canada maybe over (putting us on the warm side of the storm).
http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_1000_loop.html


btw, much of europe and the mtn west of the us have also turned white...always helpful for generating more cold air for all of us.
http://www.natice.noaa.gov/ims/

I'm liking 12/8-10 for a storm. hoping for the right p-type.

[MntMan4Bush]

Well put Tin. That's exactly my point. To get us to the level of K-town snowmaking it would require so much more that would take away from what we enjoy here, like widening trails for optimal coverage and creating huge Sunday River style "snow factories". No one wants that. What we want is a good end to end skiing experience comparable to other mountains the size of Sugarbush. Mid season I'd take Sugarbush any day. We don't know how good we have it with no lines, quality terrain and natural coverage. But there are many early days in a season we miss out on that I would rather be skiing than wishing I were.

This all being said, again I wonder how much is it a decision made by the mountain and how much is really a capacity issue. What is the max we could potentially cover with the current infrastructure regardless of cost? I'm not suggesting we spend all the revenue on snowmaking, but I am curious what we could potentially do given as an assumption that after X% of coverage the cost increases exponentially due to lack of proper equipment. It would at least give an idea on how much is truly "capacity" and how much is "cost conscious". It has to be a good portion of the latter because when we started snowmaking versus other mountains, even on just one trail is behind. From there I think I can complain properly.

[Tin Woodsman]

Well put Tin. That's exactly my point. To get us to the level of K-town snowmaking it would require so much more that would take away from what we enjoy here, like widening trails for optimal coverage and creating huge Sunday River style "snow factories". No one wants that. What we want is a good end to end skiing experience comparable to other mountains the size of Sugarbush. Mid season I'd take Sugarbush any day. We don't know how good we have it with no lines, quality terrain and natural coverage. But there are many early days in a season we miss out on that I would rather be skiing than wishing I were.

This all being said, again I wonder how much is it a decision made by the mountain and how much is really a capacity issue. What is the max we could potentially cover with the current infrastructure regardless of cost? I'm not suggesting we spend all the revenue on snowmaking, but I am curious what we could potentially do given as an assumption that after X% of coverage the cost increases exponentially due to lack of proper equipment. It would at least give an idea on how much is truly "capacity" and how much is "cost conscious". It has to be a good portion of the latter because when we started snowmaking versus other mountains, even on just one trail is behind. From there I think I can complain properly.

Though the main issue is clearly one of capacity, it's not a mutually exclusive proposition. There's a cost curve associated with producing snow. They lack air compression capacity and could overcome that by renting diesel generators for $300K/month, at which point it becomes a cost issue (and I suppose, to a lesser extent, and environmental one). Aside from the lack of air, there's so much we don't know here, so it's difficult to speculate. Even if they had enough air, would they have enough staff to man more than a single line running at one time? That's both a cost and capacity issue. If they had the air, would they want to pay for the electrical power to utilize it? I have no idea. How would adjusting the mix of guns on the hill or changing the lousy ASC pipe impact system efficiency, output and power consumption? We have some slightly informed speculation, but that's a long, long way from fact.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to this: the constraints of the current system can be overcome for periods of time, but not without significant expense that would drive the per unit cost of the new snow well beyond what SB considers to be financially reasonable. Investments to expand capacity would likely reduce this marginal cost of production, as well as the unit cost of existing production capacity (at the trade off of interest expense), but it remains to be seen if that will be an area of focus for Win and Co. going forward.

[ski_resort_observer]

I went Friday, stuck around Saturday hoping for Organgrinder to open up even as I got blasted in the face by guns and wind on the only trail open funneling people down it and came back Sunday only to be disappointed again.
I was glad to get out and make a few turns but I was disappointed in the inability to get terrain open at this point in the season even though it's early. Having everyone on only one trail and reducing visibility by coating my goggles with ice at every turn as opposed to working on Organgrinder or another trail during the day didn't help my enjoyability either.

First, I know I'm gonna regret this post but what the heck, never stopped me before. Secondly, I speak for myself as a Sugarbusher for 40 years, not as a member of the staff. I do not speak for the resort, never have, never will. Thirdly and most important you have a right to your opinion and perception of the facts, that's why Tin, Losty and I pushed to get this forum going.

It does bug me abit that you seem to complain about the lack of snowmaking but then complain because the Bush is making snow. Everyone knew the Bush would be making snow on the open terrain, very few had an issue with it.

Here's part of the reason why a big effort to expand terrain snowmakingwise was not done last week. It's the weather!!!! Knowing there would be a 2 day warm-up this week, with the potential of alot of rain...oops...I mean non-crystalized percipitation, making a bunch of snow on new trails would just get washed away. Better to focus on a few trails adding enough base to survive the event.

It's not about the amount of coinage spent, it's about the use of that coinage. The Bush takes a more conservative approach, smart way to go IMHO, especially in view of the recession and the new expansion, to start the season. With such iffy weather during the last 10 years, it's being smart.

Obviously, you and others disagree and that's cool but a large majority of the folks I talked to last weekend had a fun day, very few compaints, people were excited about the new buildings. I did detect a few instances of optimism in your post, better conditions to come. We agree on that. I also take that we opened earlier than last year as a positive thing as well.

[Tin Woodsman]

I went Friday, stuck around Saturday hoping for Organgrinder to open up even as I got blasted in the face by guns and wind on the only trail open funneling people down it and came back Sunday only to be disappointed again.
I was glad to get out and make a few turns but I was disappointed in the inability to get terrain open at this point in the season even though it's early. Having everyone on only one trail and reducing visibility by coating my goggles with ice at every turn as opposed to working on Organgrinder or another trail during the day didn't help my enjoyability either.

First, I know I'm gonna regret this post but what the heck, never stopped me before. Secondly, I speak for myself as a Sugarbusher for 40 years, not as a member of the staff. I do not speak for the resort, never have, never will. Thirdly and most important you have a right to your opinion and perception of the facts, that's why Tin, Losty and I pushed to get this forum going.

It does bug me abit that you seem to complain about the lack of snowmaking but then complain because the Bush is making snow. Everyone knew the Bush would be making snow on the open terrain, very few had an issue with it.

Here's part of the reason why a big effort to expand terrain snowmakingwise was not done last week. It's the weather!!!! Knowing there would be a 2 day warm-up this week, with the potential of alot of rain...oops...I mean non-crystalized percipitation, making a bunch of snow on new trails would just get washed away. Better to focus on a few trails adding enough base to survive the event.

It's not about the amount of coinage spent, it's about the use of that coinage. The Bush takes a more conservative approach, smart way to go IMHO, especially in view of the recession and the new expansion, to start the season. With such iffy weather during the last 10 years, it's being smart.

Obviously, you and others disagree and that's cool but a large majority of the folks I talked to last weekend had a fun day, very few compaints, people were excited about the new buildings. I did detect a few instances of optimism in your post, better conditions to come. We agree on that. I also take that we opened earlier than last year as a positive thing as well.
I won't speak to the conditions or annoyance of guns as I wasn't there and I'm generally happy to just be out there on the snow.

The weather issue is absolutely legitimate and certainly a good reason, in isolation, why SB wouldn't want to blow snow on other trails. Why spend all that money only to have it washed down into the Mad River? That is somewhat mitigated, IMHO, by the fact that it's supposed to rain everywhere. Presumably, all the other resorts with larger trail counts are facing the same situation, so what makes SB different? I don't know, but I suspect that if they could produce a greater volume of snow at a given time, we would see more skiing and riding options currently open irrespective of the forecast.

[skierdon]

Sunday River probably has the best snowmaking system in the country so I think that is an unrealistic comparison. Also- they are a real estate play being leased back to Boyne and likely leveraged up the wazoo- something I don't think the valley wants with significant job loss one bankruptcy away. Look at Jay Peak, which has 1-2 trails open now and they have a slight latitudinal advantage over the Bush. They are developing their base area in similar fashion to the Claybrook expansion. They have similar terrain and a similar brand of skier. I think this is a better comparison and both mountains appear to be progressing with snowmaking in similar fashion this season.

That being said- I am speaking for myself and in my opinion I'd rather be on natural snow. I get the most enjoyment tracking weather, getting up early when it dumps and finding other things to do when conditions go downhill. Doing 30 runs down man-made groomers is not that rewarding and I guess I just don't understand the obsession with it. Sure- if there is a trail or two open this weekend I'll be out there- but I'll look at it as being outside and getting exercise and not skiing.

[Hawk]

Sunday River probably has the best snowmaking system in the country so I think that is an unrealistic comparison. Also- they are a real estate play being leased back to Boyne and likely leveraged up the wazoo- something I don't think the valley wants with significant job loss one bankruptcy away. Look at Jay Peak, which has 1-2 trails open now and they have a slight latitudinal advantage over the Bush. They are developing their base area in similar fashion to the Claybrook expansion. They have similar terrain and a similar brand of skier. I think this is a better comparison and both mountains appear to be progressing with snowmaking in similar fashion this season.

That being said- I am speaking for myself and in my opinion I'd rather be on natural snow. I get the most enjoyment tracking weather, getting up early when it dumps and finding other things to do when conditions go downhill. Doing 30 runs down man-made groomers is not that rewarding and I guess I just don't understand the obsession with it. Sure- if there is a trail or two open this weekend I'll be out there- but I'll look at it as being outside and getting exercise and not skiing.
Fair enough. I guess you can call it an obsession. I skied in October and have double didgit days in this year. I also am still riding my mountain bike several nights a week at Lynn, HP and the Fells. I guess I am not a good measure of the regular skier. But I will always be an advocate for more snowmaking. It is what grows the business and keeps it going when times are lean. Not fancy buildings.

[HowieT2]

Sunday River probably has the best snowmaking system in the country so I think that is an unrealistic comparison. Also- they are a real estate play being leased back to Boyne and likely leveraged up the wazoo- something I don't think the valley wants with significant job loss one bankruptcy away. Look at Jay Peak, which has 1-2 trails open now and they have a slight latitudinal advantage over the Bush. They are developing their base area in similar fashion to the Claybrook expansion. They have similar terrain and a similar brand of skier. I think this is a better comparison and both mountains appear to be progressing with snowmaking in similar fashion this season.

That being said- I am speaking for myself and in my opinion I'd rather be on natural snow. I get the most enjoyment tracking weather, getting up early when it dumps and finding other things to do when conditions go downhill. Doing 30 runs down man-made groomers is not that rewarding and I guess I just don't understand the obsession with it. Sure- if there is a trail or two open this weekend I'll be out there- but I'll look at it as being outside and getting exercise and not skiing.
Fair enough. I guess you can call it an obsession. I skied in October and have double didgit days in this year. I also am still riding my mountain bike several nights a week at Lynn, HP and the Fells. I guess I am not a good measure of the regular skier. But I will always be an advocate for more snowmaking. It is what grows the business and keeps it going when times are lean. Not fancy buildings.

Have to agree with you about the snowmaking but the buildings are essential also. Obviously SB is not going to get many ticket purchasing customers, as opposed to season pass holders, when there are only 2 trails open not to mention downloading. furthermore, those booking vacations in advance need confidence there is going to be a reasonable skiing experience notwithstanding adverse weather conditions. Those same vacationers need to have adequate ski school and rental facilities or they won't come back for more.

[Tin Woodsman]

Have to agree with you about the snowmaking but the buildings are essential also. Obviously SB is not going to get many ticket purchasing customers, as opposed to season pass holders, when there are only 2 trails open not to mention downloading. furthermore, those booking vacations in advance need confidence there is going to be a reasonable skiing experience notwithstanding adverse weather conditions. Those same vacationers need to have adequate ski school and rental facilities or they won't come back for more.
For me, this really captures it. Ensuring a reliable guest experience, on and off the mountain, is what attracts and retains skiers at the margin. There are always going to be skiers who like SB's natural attributes (terrain, variety, vibe, etc..) so much that they will self-select themselves into being a customers year after year. But the fact of the matter is that if the mountain wants to grow and prosper, it has to increase its market share in the midst of a generally flat to down market, and that will require taking business away from their competitors. That's harder to do when you have large gaps in your offering from a reliability standpoint. Win/SV has taken a massive step forward with the LP village - something like $60-80MM in those four buildings plus Timbers. That's major coin for even the Vails of the world, which SB certainly is not. The next logical step in my mind revolves around snowmaking. Beyond that, they can get creative based upon what guests are looking for and demand dictates. but I don't think there's any way they get back into the mid 300K skier visit range w/o announcing to the world that skiers can expect reliable conditions and more than one way down the mountain early season.

[MntMan4Bush]

I love the argument of "I'd rather be skiing on natural snow than man made". Who wouldn't. Let's put another factor in the equation here:

Natural > Man made > None at all.

So by this logic I would rather have man made snow than no snow. Plus I'm not sure why you always associate man made with flat groomers that have no excitement. I remember a couple years back Racers Edge had guns blasting away (none in the face) and what we got were nice early season bumps that were anything but boring and they certainly gave a work out. It was a great day and one of the better snow making experiences at the Bush that I can remember.

As for me complaining about lack of snowmaking and them making it on the only trail we were on I guess I'm guilty. If they could only blow on one trail though I guess what i would have liked to have seen was them switch over to Organgrinder if they weren't going to open it while people skied on Jester then if they felt Jester needed more cover switch back over. This might have helped them get 2 trails open. Bottom line is that while it was good to be out and stretching the old legs it kind of sucked that our only option was through a face blasting gauntlet. On Sunday it seemed the quality of snow being made was lighter so maybe if it wasn't wet on Saturday I might have had a different experience as well.

The weather excuse doesn't fly for all the reasons Tin pointed out. Other mountains at lower elevations and further south would be subject to the same, yet they still came to play.

Jay =/= Sugarbush. Not even close. Maybe you can compare Jay with Smuggs, but it's still a stretch. I guess we're even for me suggesting that Sugarbush try and get more man made snow out there while mentioning Sunday River in the paragraph.

[bumpcrasher]

I had to go back and look but the the original question thrown out there---whether the mountain currently has the capability to make snow on more than one trail at a time? I knew someone would chime in with a dissertaion on wet-bulbs, compressors and the merits of fan guns vs. low e-guns. However, the simple question remains---can the Bush make snow on more than one-trail at a time?? If they do not have the capacity--well, I will still "drink the Kool-Aid" (or the cider--that stuff is good!!) and say I had a great day. In truth, it was pretty disappointing to see that there were only 30-35 snowguns going at one time.

As for SkierDon's suggestion that MM4Bush's request for more man-made snow is like asking for turndown service at the Ritz, well, I am going to have to request a Godiva Chocolate on my pillow as well. Snowmaking is GOOD and if my season only began when the woods and Castlerock were open with 3-feet of Utah-pow, my family and friends would hate me even more than they already do.

I am in the same boat as Hawk and have been driving from the Bush to SR and K-Ton since October. In all my travels I did not see Tony Soprano skiing an icy groomer on a white ribbon of death. However, I did see more than a few Sugarbush regulars--some of whom frequently post on this board (dont worry, I won't call you out for skiing at "the enemy").

Truth is, most of us are unlikely to switch over and ski another mountain. However, it would be nice to know---does the Bush have the capability to make snow on more than one trail??

[/quote]

[shadyjay]

However, it would be nice to know---does the Bush have the capability to make snow on more than one trail??

On Sunday, guns were going on Jester, Downspout, AND Organgrinder.

Had the r@!# not been in the forecast AND cold temps remained for a couple/few days, they may well have moved over to Lower Downspout/Lower Jester/Coffee Run. Instead, its about building up the base to keep that one route open during this funky period.

[win]

It is late, so I am not sure my answer will be as complete as it might be. I have answered this in past years.

Snowmaking is a function of compressed air and water. We have three electirc compressors at Lincoln Peak and two at Mount Ellen. When temperatures are in the low 20s we can blow a lot. Last weekend we had all five going. Unfortunately, since these were originally two separate areas we can not use the air and water at one area at the other area.They are not connected. Last weekend we had at times guns running on Upper Jester, Upper Organgrinder, Downspout, Panorama, Upper Rim Run and Elbow and Spread Eagle which connects to the bottom of the Summit lift. The colder the temperatures the more water that can be pumped. As temperatures rise you need more compressed air to create snow. Last week we had a warm up and rain, so we lost a lot of what we had made on Jester and Downspout. That and in anticipation of the weather and rain we are getting now led up to build up as much depth on Upper Jester and Downnspout as we could, so after this we could begin to expand terrain. We did open Upper Organgrinder on Monday and we have decent depth on it, but the next 24 hours will determine whether we have to go back there or whether we can make snow elsewhere.

Essentially, we and others can make quality snow a temperatures below 28 degress wetbulb and ideally 25. Above that you make wet snow and use a lot of energy for minimal production.

Our goal is not to be the first open or the last open but rather to deliver a quality product and have a longer than average season. SInce we have owned Sugarbush we have had one of the longest seasons of any New England resort, and IMHO have delivered a quality product and have spent our money sensibily. The decision whether to move to the bottom really depends on temperatures and the forecast.. It is a waste of money to make snow and then have a weather event like we will have these next 24 hours and see all of our snow disappear. When we have a base on the upper mountain like we do, hopefully we can keep that terrain open and move on quickly to other trails..

With respect to Killington, they do have more compression capacity that can be focused on one mountain unlike ours which is spread over two areas.
It makes no sense to jump all over the mountain. We have had an early season plan that systematically makes snow on trails with a goal of putting down a depth of at least three feet and then moving on to other trails. That depth gives us the base to groom and not have to keep coming back. Once we have the basic trails covered, then we can runs guns where needed, but early on we are going to focus on one area at a time and that will be deterined by our temperatures forecast. There can be over a 15 degree difference from bottom to top.

That is it for tonight.

[Benski]

enough about snowmaking.

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BURLINGTON VT
LONG TERM /THURSDAY NIGHT THROUGH MONDAY... AS OF 415 AM EST TUESDAY...

A CUT OFF LOW IS PROGGED TO DEVELOP BY SATURDAY MORNING. THIS NEW LOW WILL JOIN WITH HIGH PRESSURE OVER THE ATLANTIC AND ANOTHER LOW EAST OF GREENLAND TO FORM AN OMEGA BLOCK...WHICH MEANS THE LOW WILL BECOME NEARLY STATIONARY THROUGH THE BEGINNING OF NEXT WEEK. THE RESULT WILL BE COOL CLOUDY WEATHER FOR THE NORTH COUNTRY WITH SCATTERED SNOW SHOWERS ...ESPECIALLY OVER THE NORTHERN MOUNTAINS.

[random_ski_guy]

Dudesters, while all this snowmaking talkie-talkie has taken place today the weather gods have been a little bit more favorable with the latest models.

Building on Benski's post, I will also quote the NWS's current forecast discussion:

CREATING A CLASSIC OMEGA BLOCK WHICH WILL NOT ALLOW THE UPPER
LOW OVER THE NORTH COUNTRY TO PROGRESS EASTWARD. THE END RESULT WILL
BE COOL CLOUDY WEATHER FOR REGION WITH SCATTERED SNOW SHOWERS...ESPECIALLY
OVER THE NORTHERN MOUNTAINS. TEMPERATURES THROUGH THE PERIOD WILL
BE NEAR SEASONAL NORMALS WITH HIGHS IN THE 30S AND LOWS IN THE 20S.
FRIDAY WILL BE THE WARMEST DAY OF THE PERIOD WITH THE VALLEYS
WARMING INTO THE UPPER 30S...WITH TEMPERATURES COOLING THROUGH
THROUGH THE WEEKEND AS THE UPPER LOW SETTLES OVER THE REGION.
WITH COOL TEMPERATURES IN PLACE...ANY PRECIPITATION WILL FALL AS
SNOW THOUGH ACCUMULATIONS BELOW 2000 FEET WILL LIKELY BE LIGHT.
ABOVE 2000 FEET THOUGH...WE COULD SEE SEVERAL INCHES OF ACCUMULATION
THROUGH THE WEEKEND.

"Classic OMEGA Block"...sounds good to me and like I said earlier today, the current 10 day model shows a storm coming through around 12/8 and hanging through the weekend with snow shower activity.

[Yard Sale]

Our goal is not to be the first open or the last open but rather to deliver a quality product and have a longer than average season. SInce we have owned Sugarbush we have had one of the longest seasons of any New England resort, and IMHO have delivered a quality product and have spent our money sensibily. That is it for tonight.

Agreed, and thanks.

Limitations of resources aside, certainly more snow sooner is preferable to less later, but given the choice of quantity over quality, for me, quality wins out.

[MntMan4Bush]

On a completely related topic......

I appreciate the update and response. You certainly don't take it lightly as the detail you put into it indicates.

I would argue a quality product. Mid to end of season there's no place I'd rather be and I'd agree it is a quality product. Mother nature is a huge contributor/detractor as well though(Thinking of last year where snow was in short supply).

However I would not say that in comparison to other mountains in the NE you could say our quality was on par for last weekend or to begin the year. I would say it was substandard. No one is measuring moisture content or granule size to compare. The product purchased by the consumer is a day of skiing. Quality in the ski business from a customer's point of view is measured by overall experience, terrain difficulty levels and variance, grooming, coverage, friendliness of staff, accessibility. I.e. did you have a good time.

In a vacuum you might be able to say that since I was at SB and only planned on being there then I had a better time than if I sat home on my couch. I was out with friends, got to catch up with people and was outdoors. I had a good time, but I can make the best of any situation. However if you want to measure quality it should be a comparative analysis. Since there isn't a definitive 100% mark to hit you have to look around you and your competition sets the standards. Someone is #1 and everyone else is rated behind them. As I've pointed out many times I agree we can't be #1 in snowmaking for a number of reasons. So we need to make up for it elsewhere to be #1 overall. Staff friendliness comes to mind when I think what sets us apart, but that isn't enough to put us on top. Mid season it's easy to forget how we pale in comparison to other mountains in snowmaking so i bring it up now as we face the issue.

I think though my question was answered in that Saturday our capacity was maxed out and we were going full on couldn't possibly have made more snow at South even if we wanted to. Given that are there plans to get more air compressors in the near future? For the record I would consider Jester to Downspout one trail. Not 3 for trails snow is being made on. To call it 3, while accurate, is a bit misleading.

[Hawk]

Thanks for the response Win. As always you give it straight and to the point which is greatly appriciated. Your people do the best with what they have and do a fine job. My critique was just that and hopefully some day Sugarbush will be in the position to augment what is has to be a little better.

See you out there. :wink:

[vonski]

The problem with getting more compressors is the lack of Power/electricity the mountain has available at time. So, unless the costly diesels are brought back then it is not much in the equation. There are times that Green Mountain power either tells the mountain not to use power or pay some outrageous price for the electicity. So, I guess we need to cap each peak with a bunch of Turbines. Also with the addition of more compressors Water could become an issue as ASC never dug the holding pond to the full depth of the allowable permit!

[summitchallenger]

Also with the addition of more compressors Water could become an issue as ASC never dug the holding pond to the full depth of the allowable permit!

I think that issue was resolved in 2002.

[Tin Woodsman]

The problem with getting more compressors is the lack of Power/electricity the mountain has available at time. So, unless the costly diesels are brought back then it is not much in the equation. There are times that Green Mountain power either tells the mountain not to use power or pay some outrageous price for the electicity. So, I guess we need to cap each peak with a bunch of Turbines. Also with the addition of more compressors Water could become an issue as ASC never dug the holding pond to the full depth of the allowable permit!

I think those are two separate issues. Under most normal conditions, the mountain is limited by the amount of compressed air it can pump. They certainly good invest in additional compressors and attach them to the GMP grid as the current ones are. As you point out, under certain conditions when power consumption in the valley is very high, GMP limits/cuts them off and the choice is to either shut down the system, run at a limited capacity, or to "buy through" the limit and pay a really high price above and beyond the contracted level (i.e. I can get you more, power, but it's gonna cost ya). My understanding is that they only encounter this issue a few times per year. Of course, there's a chance they would encounter it more by hooking more compressors to the grid, so as with any business decision, there are trade offs here, the complexities of which we couldn't possibly understand as outsiders.



I think that issue was resolved in 2002.

Not to my understanding. I found a post on this forum from Win in 2005 or 2006 indicating that SV hadn't dug out the pond to its fully permitted size and furthermore that doing so would be more of a regulatory headache than just building new ponds. He intimated that they had explored locations for new ponds and would proceed with that (instead of digging out the current one) if/when the time was right.

Ultimately, I think that while their water isn't effectively unlimited like at K-Mart, Gore or Sunday River, it's not the most immediate bottleneck. The most immediate one is air compression, and then how to find the power to run it in a fiscally and environmentally responsible fashion. This is the basis of my unending obsession with fan guns, which generally consume far less power per unit of snow produced than air/water guns. I'd be surprised if they bump up against their water capacity under anything but the most ideal conditions (e.g. 15 degrees with 20% humidity)

[groomer]

Grooming mt ellen last night, UPPER FIS was all lit up with guns a blazing! see everyone friday! :D :D :D

[shadyjay]

Looks like Mid Jester, Domino Chute, Lower OG, Hot Shot, Waterfall, Lower Hot Shot are all opening for the season tomorrow, 12/15. GH side hasn't had the snowmaking since before Sunday's weather, and a couple days of snowmaking is what it took for Mid Jester, Domino Chute, and Lower OG.

Oh yeah, Spillsville is also opening tomorrow.


Rumour is Valley House Traverse->Snowball->Spring Fling is next for snowmaking.

[Tin Woodsman]

Looks like Mid Jester, Domino Chute, Lower OG, Hot Shot, Waterfall, Lower Hot Shot are all opening for the season tomorrow, 12/15. GH side hasn't had the snowmaking since before Sunday's weather, and a couple days of snowmaking is what it took for Mid Jester, Domino Chute, and Lower OG.

Got to give credit where it's due. That's a pretty decent amount of terrain to get covered since Sunday, though I know they had a head start on Hot Shit/Waterfall combo before the deluge.



Oh yeah, Spillsville is also opening tomorrow.
Surprising. Have to think it will be bony.


Rumour is Valley House Traverse->Snowball->Spring Fling is next for snowmaking.
Makes sense. Should be an interesting test of the new firepower. Then they've got to race to Birdland and Murphy's, assuming the natural doesn't get there first. Like every year, we have the classic race against time, with less than 10 days before holiday visitors start arriving and lots of terrain awaiting coverage.

[Hawk]

Been 5 days blowin on spring fling and Snowball. When are they opening? What is the plan for the Holiday week? Just curious as my not so skilled relatives are due up.

[vonski]

Looks like they are getting close as the trail report shows they went to Murphys and Birdland as well now. It does seem like the cold temps and new pipe are helping out with the ability to make snow!

[Hawk]

Looks like they are getting close as the trail report shows they went to Murphys and Birdland as well now. It does seem like the cold temps and new pipe are helping out with the ability to make snow!
Funny you say that Von. I was thinking the opposite. They seem to be taking the same time if not longer to open trails as last year. I mean 5 days on spring fling to open it? Anyway, it will snow some more soon and all this will be just a memory.

[random_ski_guy]

given the very favorable weather of the past 8 or 9 days, the snowmaking roll out seems a tad slow. i'm not looking to be negative. maybe they have throttled back a bit to operate at a more energy efficient level. has anyone looked at their snowmaking ponds, maybe they are trying to pace water consumption.

in any event, the weather continues to be favorable, so you have to figure sleeper, steins and sunrise & birch are next in some order. should be good skiing through the new year.

[vonski]

Hawk, Same amount of time but more guns on at once it seems like at least by looking at the reports from the flatlands. is what I was saying. Cause today it said spring fling snowball, birdland and murphy's, usually I would have expected just springfling and snowball, with no ability any where else.

[summitchallenger]

FWIW a few weeks back Win said that the protocol was a 3' base on each trail before moving on. It takes a while to do that.

[HowieT2]

Hawk, Same amount of time but more guns on at once it seems like at least by looking at the reports from the flatlands. is what I was saying. Cause today it said spring fling snowball, birdland and murphy's, usually I would have expected just springfling and snowball, with no ability any where else.

you might be right, but I think more likely they are finishing off springfling/snowball and starting up on murphy's/birdland, as opposed to both at the same time.

As for how long it is taking, I thought they started on spring fling/snowball on saturday and assuming they finished this morning, that would be 3 days/four nights, which sounds about right????

[Hawk]

Who knows. They may just be putting down a big base and keeping it closed so that people don't have to ski throught the guns. I wouldn't think that there are water concerns with all the rain we recently had.

[win]

There is a lot more to making snow than I have the time to fully explain on a blog. We have a certain amount of compressed air per minute that is available . The colder and less humidity there is allows us to reduce the ratio of CFM per GPM (gallons per minute). Trails like snowball and spring fling and Inverness have alot more acreage than trails like Birdland and Murphy's. We plan to put down a certain amount of gallons of water per acre, so the colder and drier it is, the faster the progress. We are moving off of Snowball and Spring Fling and will be finishing Birdland and Murphy's in a day or so. Because it has warmed up we are moving to Ripcord so that we have the depth there to groom it. If temperatures cooperate, we then move over to Sleeper, Slowpoke, Easy Rider and then up North Lynx to blow on Birch and then Sunrise. Our hope is to be opening at least Birch by Sunday or Monday. At ME we are completing snowmaking on Riemergasse and beginning to build the Terrain Park so that it is open by Sunday. Snowmaking is now focused on completing Inverness which has the most acreage of all of our trails and then to North Star and Lower Elbow.

We run our compressors 24/7 and put out maximum water whenever temperatures allow from the time we start making snow until our plan is completed. This year we have put out significantly more gallons of water than last year, but we have not had as good natural base building natural snow.

I would also point out that last Saturday we had more trails open than Killington, Mt. Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, and Bolton. As you know a number of hills were not even open. Okemo and Stratton had a few morethan us, but they are very different mountains. Of course we benefitted from natural snow, but we also did not lose terrain where we had made snow because we had put down sufficient depth on the trails where we had made snow before the 1.5 inches of rain came in.

If anyone wants to really understand the science of snowmaking, I would be happy to put together a session with out snowmaking team.

[chuck]

I would sign up for that session.

[Hawk]

That would be cool. I am sure there would be a good turnout.

[Hawk]

Hawk, Same amount of time but more guns on at once it seems like at least by looking at the reports from the flatlands. is what I was saying. Cause today it said spring fling snowball, birdland and murphy's, usually I would have expected just springfling and snowball, with no ability any where else.

you might be right, but I think more likely they are finishing off springfling/snowball and starting up on murphy's/birdland, as opposed to both at the same time.

As for how long it is taking, I thought they started on spring fling/snowball on saturday and assuming they finished this morning, that would be 3 days/four nights, which sounds about right????
They started on Friday. The guns were on when I came up Friday night. Also Today is Wednesday. So............

[summitchallenger]

If anyone wants to really understand the science of snowmaking, I would be happy to put together a session with out snowmaking team.

Sign me up. Thanks!

[teleo]

That would be cool. Maybe do a tour of operations at one of the mountains as part of it.

[HowieT2]

There is a lot more to making snow than I have the time to fully explain on a blog. We have a certain amount of compressed air per minute that is available . The colder and less humidity there is allows us to reduce the ratio of CFM per GPM (gallons per minute). Trails like snowball and spring fling and Inverness have alot more acreage than trails like Birdland and Murphy's. We plan to put down a certain amount of gallons of water per acre, so the colder and drier it is, the faster the progress. We are moving off of Snowball and Spring Fling and will be finishing Birdland and Murphy's in a day or so. Because it has warmed up we are moving to Ripcord so that we have the depth there to groom it. If temperatures cooperate, we then move over to Sleeper, Slowpoke, Easy Rider and then up North Lynx to blow on Birch and then Sunrise. Our hope is to be opening at least Birch by Sunday or Monday. At ME we are completing snowmaking on Riemergasse and beginning to build the Terrain Park so that it is open by Sunday. Snowmaking is now focused on completing Inverness which has the most acreage of all of our trails and then to North Star and Lower Elbow.

We run our compressors 24/7 and put out maximum water whenever temperatures allow from the time we start making snow until our plan is completed. This year we have put out significantly more gallons of water than last year, but we have not had as good natural base building natural snow.

I would also point out that last Saturday we had more trails open than Killington, Mt. Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, and Bolton. As you know a number of hills were not even open. Okemo and Stratton had a few morethan us, but they are very different mountains. Of course we benefitted from natural snow, but we also did not lose terrain where we had made snow because we had put down sufficient depth on the trails where we had made snow before the 1.5 inches of rain came in.

If anyone wants to really understand the science of snowmaking, I would be happy to put together a session with out snowmaking team.

So our incessant snowmaking discussion is so insufferable that you would sacrifice the snowmaking team to make it end? :lol:

[random_ski_guy]

Win, thanks for the detailed update. As you can see, people on this board love details.

And Win is right in that no other mtns are really blowing the doors off on terrain expansion over the past 10 days. For instance, while Stowe has opened Spruce Peak and the Gondola, they still haven’t touched Nosedive and Liftline.

As for the seminar, I do agree with Howie in that I kind of feel bad about it. I don’t know if the seminar will truly end the discussion. Personally, I just love the ski biz in general. Talking about snowmaking is like talking about sports to me. There will always be the element of woulda, coulda, shoulda with respect to capital improvements, snowmaking plans and other ski biz decisions. It just fun conversation to me.

[HowieT2]

Win, thanks for the detailed update. As you can see, people on this board love details.

And Win is right in that no other mtns are really blowing the doors off on terrain expansion over the past 10 days. For instance, while Stowe has opened Spruce Peak and the Gondola, they still haven’t touched Nosedive and Liftline.

As for the seminar, I do agree with Howie in that I kind of feel bad about it. I don’t know if the seminar will truly end the discussion. Personally, I just love the ski biz in general. Talking about snowmaking is like talking about sports to me. There will always be the element of woulda, coulda, shoulda with respect to capital improvements, snowmaking plans and other ski biz decisions. It just fun conversation to me.

+1

[Hawk]

You know it's hard to talk snowmaking with a group that really doesn't understand the value of it. It's one big denial party in here. So to hell with the snowmaking conversation. :wink: I would definately like to do a tour of the SB facilitys and have them show and tell thier system. I promise I will not go off on this message board after about any short commings. I just think it would be cool to see it.

Anyway the radar just lit up with precip and I am on my way up this afternon for a long ski vacation. Looks like tomorrow will be great.

Later dudes......

[Fourwide]

"Talking about snowmaking is like talking about sports to me."

HHmmmmm...maybe we can get Jim Nance and Phil Simms on the hill..."I don't know, Jim...seems to me that they're making a BIG mistake here, focussing on the upper mountain before some of that important intermediate terrain is done..." "Phil, I hear you, but it is a "skier's mountain"--the blue trail crowd should just bide their time, enjoy a cold one at the pub, even a sumptuous lunch at Timbers..." :lol:

[MntMan4Bush]

With our luck we'd pull Shannon Sharpe and Dennis Miller. Sharpe - "I won't talk about compressors. I won't talk about water supply or area of coverage, but if there's a snow making deficiency I'll talk about it. Hey does my tie match my turquoise suit?".....Miller - "Of course Killington makes more snow. They buy more snow then Seward did when he bought Alaska from the Russians. When are they going to retire some of that snow making equipment they have here and get some more fan guns? I mean some of that stuff is older than cuneiform in Nebuchadnezzar's tomb. Okay babe."

But seriously. This whole thing is like my golf game. Better lucky than good. Natural snow bails us out and we forget what skiing was like a month ago. Not to be a naysayer, but NAY. Let's also be cautious with using trail count as an indicator. Upper Panorama and Lower Panorama boosting our total is not a exactly indicative of more terrain open. Also the ropes dropped at North last weekend like the underwear off Lindsay Lohan on a casting couch. This doesn't mean our snow making saved us. It further supports the argument of North vs South as the early/late mountain. That's all. Of course given Claybrook if I was Win I'd do the same thing. I can't blame him but just saying it from a skiers point of view.

Anyways, there's snow on the ground, powder under my boards so I and the rest of us will conveniently forget about this until next year. Funny how new snow makes that happen.

Happy holidays and Merry Christmas all. Cheers.

[summitchallenger]

Let's also be cautious with using trail count as an indicator. Upper Panorama and Lower Panorama boosting our total is not a exactly indicative of more terrain open.

If you skied Sugarbush or at least looked at a trail map you would see that there is no such Lower Panorama.

Carry on.

[MntMan4Bush]

/End Sarcasm.

Please continue.

[ahm]

Ahhh, the season has cranked up and so has the eternal issue of snowmaking. So, I thought I would take a minute to compose the 9 days of snowmaking:
1. One the first day of snowmaking Win gave to us a new snowmaking pipe!.
2. On the second day of snowmaking Atkinson gave to us 2 new fan guns and a new snow making pipe!
3. On the third day of snowmaking Hammond gave to us 3 new super charged compressors, 2 new fan guns and a new snow making pipe
4. On the fourth day of snowmaking Egan gave to us all the water in the Valley, 3 new super charged compressors, 2 new fan guns and a new snowmaking pipe
5. On the fifth day of snowmaking Adam gave to us free us of GMP power for a full season, all the water in the Valley, 3 new super charged compressors, 2 new fan guns and a new snowmaking pipe
6. On the sixth day of snowmaking the bush gave to us a hill covered in white man made, a seaons worth of free GMP power, all the water in the Valley, 3 new super charged compressors, 2 new fan guns and a new snowmaking pipe.
7. On the seventh day of snowmaking Win gave to us 10 new groomers, a hill covered in white manmade, all the water in the Valley, 3 new super charged compressors, 2 new fan guns and a new snowmaking pipe.
8. On the eighth day of snowmaking Atkinson gave to us a hill groomed completely, using our new groomers, full of manmade, using all the valley's water, the 3 compressors were churning, the 2 new fan guns were blowing and the new snowmaking pipe was full
9. On the ninth day of snowmaking Sugarbush looked to us.............just like Sunday River, Killington in the 80s- 90s, we had turn up our I-pods cus the sound of manmade boiler plate was so loud that we asked Win to please go back to a more natural skiing experience.

Now that you have "weathered" through my song, I'll recount my tail of Holiday skiing past. I talked to a good friend at SB yesterday and he was lamenting the lack of coverage. I was lamenting the ridiculous groomerlicious Sunday River skiing that I do now having relocated to ME and how I missed the narrow, natural snow of the bush. So, if ya want snow making to the 9s (you'll see the website talks of how many days of snowmaking they've had) go to the River. Everything is pretty much open...............and everything skis about the same.......one boiler plate groomer after another, a sea of white.........If you want it more natural and less manufactured, the MRV is the place.

And on an ending note the upper reaches of Sugarloaf where Bubblecuffer, Winter's Way, Blade Glade etc all skied great after the snow on Wed night reminded me even more loudly than the sound of my edges scrapping around the river, how natural snow and natural terrain is what this skier (and most on this forum) prefer!

And now too all a good day and a good night............................................. let the storm begin on Sunday night!!!

[ski_resort_observer]

Hey AHM....nice to hear from ya....I spent 5 years in Maine.....wicked good post...have a great New Year! :D